Reminders: Things We All Know But Which Tend To Get Lost

[quaddriver]

And a person who has no children or is female and lives at home with the 'rents adds to an adult discussion how?

Fortunately Joe, outside of here, you dont exist. And whats worse about me knowing that, is that *you* know that. You sum contribution to this planet in exchange for using our trees and oxygen and a burger job are: your posts. Way to leave a useful mark.

[Joe Guy]

And a person who has no children or is female and lives at home with the 'rents adds to an adult discussion how?

Another predictable & typical post from the quad.

But I have to give your latest post just one & one half stars for lack of originality.

[quaddriver]

really? what part do you dispute? you have no children. you are male. you live with your folks in the bay area. do we have a problem here? Why call me crazy but in order for me to be wrong about the parts you quoted, dont I have to be in fact....wrong? The reason I included them, after your driveby is simple: facts 1 and 2 invalidate you from legitimately participating in the discussion. Fact 3 isolates you from many additional facets of adult living. not my fault. not my problem.









(and of course the unspoken part, if we once again assume we know nothing of anyone other than what is posted online a rational person would conclude that a person with your projected personality does not speak to many adults about any subjects on any basis. hurling juvenile insults at cars from 101 overpasses does NOT count) <-- sadly, or not joey, you will find that regardless of interpersonal issues, everyone here will agree with me on that one

[Joe Guy]

really? what part do you dispute? you have no children. you are male. you live with your folks in the bay area. do we have a problem here? Why call me crazy but in order for me to be wrong about the parts you quoted, dont I have to be in fact....wrong? The reason I included them, after your driveby is simple: facts 1 and 2 invalidate you from legitimately participating in the discussion. Fact 3 isolates you from many additional facets of adult living. not my fault. not my problem.

And it's my guess that by now most people here understand the nature of 'quadfacts.'

(and of course the unspoken part, if we once again assume we know nothing of anyone other than what is posted online a rational person would conclude that a person with your projected personality does not speak to many adults about any subjects on any basis. hurling juvenile insults at cars from 101 overpasses does NOT count) <-- sadly, or not joey, you will find that regardless of interpersonal issues, everyone here will agree with me on that one

Care to take a poll on that?

C'mon quad, you've created much more entertaining lies in the past.

One star.

You can do better, you know you can.

[quaddriver]

ok. set the poll up.

[The Hen]

I harbour no resentment quad. I pointed out your post was full of shit and then you proved it for me.

Now I remember why I don't read him.

[Gob]

Really? responding to this and another statistical post about PPD, I have to ask, since when did it become accepted or even assumed that PPD lasts beyond a short period of time?

What is a short period? For anyone experiencing the debilitations of depression, one day is too long.

Some women feel better within a few weeks, but others feel depressed or "not themselves" for many months. Women who have more severe symptoms of depression or who have had depression in the past may take longer to get well. Just remember that help is available and that you can get better.

Quad shot down in flames with facts....

this is exactly akin to claiming you will have sharp pain for life because you once had abdominal surgery.

No it is not, that is a strawman erected by you. It lacks logic, has no basis in fact or reality, and is typical of the debate style used by team troll.

As I clearly stated and you quoted twice (which proves you beleive I stated it) women are positive about the experience AFTER it. Which of course implies they do. it. again.

A point (for the majority of women) so blatantly obvious that no one would dispute it. What other have done is point out that thought this is the case for the majority, it may not be for everyone.

PPD is generally short lived and generally treated without medication.

Utterly wrong. Most PPD is treated with a combination of medication and talk therapy.

Treatment choices for postpartum depression include:

Counseling for both you and your partner.6 A form of counseling called cognitive-behavioral therapy has proved to be as effective as antidepressant medicine for milder postpartum depression.8 Cognitive-behavioral therapy helps you take charge of the way you think and feel. Interpersonal counseling is also a good treatment choice for postpartum depression. (You may find a counselor who offers both cognitive-behavioral therapy and interpersonal counseling.)8, 9 Interpersonal counseling focuses on relationships and the personal changes that come with having a new baby. It gives you emotional support and helps with problem solving and goal setting. For your partner, counseling may help with the demands of having a new baby. It can also help your partner support you.

Antidepressant medicine, which effectively relieves symptoms of postpartum depression for most women. Breast-feeding is also important for your baby, so talk to your doctor and your baby's doctor about an antidepressant medicine you can use while breast-feeding. Certain selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and tricyclic antidepressants are considered relatively safe for use while you are breast-feeding.10

You, and anyone else who posted on that should know that. I do not know the ages of your two kids, but lets say it is over 8 years since your last. you clearly, by your own words still harbor resentment towards the process *8 years down the road*. This hardly makes your experiences normal.

Utter bullshit again.

and worse yet, rudimentary investigation shows that the Austrailian, UK, new zealand and US populations are experiencing positive growth rate due to births. Oz, much more so than the US.

Again, Quady thinks that pulling "facts" out of his arse, just like the rest of team troll, will go unchallenged, failing, just like the rest of team troll, to realise that he is easily proved a liar with real facts;

It is to note that Australian birth rate is about 1.7 births per women and compared with other well developed countries it is considered low.

http://mindrelief.net/birth_rate_in_australia.html

National efforts to reverse declining populations

Australia currently offers a $5,000 bonus for every baby plus additional fortnightly payments, a free immunization scheme and recently proposed to pay all child care costs for women who want to work

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_decline

So what do we find?

Quaddy's "fac I pulled out of my arse" that Aus has a higher brith rate than the USA, is totally and utterly blow out of the water once you look at the real world.

Maybe he was confused due to the US having the highest rates of infant mortality in the developed world. (watch this Quaddy, this is how you make a real debate, by offering a verifiable source......)

In 2005, the United States ranked 30th in infant mortality.


http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db23.htm

Infant mortality is an important indicator of the health of a nation, and the recent stagnation (since 2000) in the U.S. infant mortality rate has generated concern among researchers and policy makers. The percentage of preterm births in the United States has risen 36% since 1984 (1). In this report we compare infant mortality rates between the United States and Europe. We also compare two factors that determine the infant mortality rate—gestational age-specific infant mortality rates and the percentage of preterm births. U.S. data are from the Linked Birth/Infant Death Data Set (2,3), and European data for 2004 are from the recently published European Perinatal Health Report (4). We also examine requirements for reporting a live birth among countries to assess the possible effect of reporting differences on infant mortality data.

I could go on, but it is too tedious showing up every single statement that Quaddy makes is either a strawman, a "fact" he pulled out of his arse, or a blatant lie.

Team troll lives on...

[Sean]

This is why I could NEVER put you on ignore Quadspacker. How could I deny myself the jaw-dropping entertainment of your posts.

BTW you muppet, using one of your own reasons against Joe participating in any discussion here... specifically the one about not being female... was the operation a success then? Maybe you're working on the basis that being a complete twat makes you female...

[quaddriver]

<snip>

There, I increased the value of your post.

Now shall I begin with all these statements you made to show I am wrong, but do no such thing?

Start: the Oz growth rate due to births-deaths is (according to wiki, not all that hard to find) is 1.2%. the US is .98%. The UK is .47 and NEw Zealand is .94. PRoving every word I said and disproving yours. source: 2009 CIA world factbook

Now lettuce turn to PPD, or POst NAsal Drip as your wife called it. According to the commie sources at the mayo clinic we find:

With appropriate treatment, postpartum depression usually goes away within a few months. In some cases, postpartum depression lasts up to a year

Hmm, that seems to be the time frame I referenced when coupled with the mroe common less sevcere form:

The baby blues usually fade on their own within a few days to weeks. In the meantime, get as much rest as you can.

Hmm, so I insist it is a short time of weeks to months, you wife claims 8 years and *Im wrong*? You mean to tell me you cannot make a coherent point or a valid argument when I spot you all the data points? niiiiice.

coupled with (from kids health):

Up to 80% of women experience something called the baby blues

In most countries on this planet (but not Oz) 80% is the majority. Some may claim it is a super majority. Once again, you, the 'mental health professional' cant even get the basics right and I the 'idiot' have it spot on. How is that always the case?

continuing:

About 10% of new mothers experience postpartum depression, which is a true clinical depression triggered by childbirth

hmmm, that sounds to be 1 in 10 or NOT the majority. And when we multiply the factor of how many cases are long term we get what? 1-2% even if we treated 100% of that 2% with drugs, we fail to acheive the majority as you claimed. Im beginning to see a pattern here.

and what do they say about treatment?

Treatment may include talk therapy, medication, or both. In addition, proper diet, exercise, rest, and social support can be very helpful. Some women find yoga to be beneficial. Some research suggests that expressing thoughts and emotions through certain writing techniques can help relieve symptoms of depression

simply put, the only thing we can find in a majority when concerning you, is the number of times you cannot even get the basic facts right.

Edi was right, you claim to treat mental health issues, but you do not in reality. You do not counsel, you do not medicate. perhaps you restrain? Are you a goon? fess up.

oh and by the way...

Postpartum Psychosis
A more serious and rare condition is postpartum psychosis. It affects about 1 in 1,000 women who give birth and occurs within the first month after labor and delivery. It may include hallucinations, such as hearing voices or seeing things, or feelings of paranoia

you know, the one your wife indicates she is suffering from....1 in 1000 is ALSO not a majority.

additonal data:

During the postpartum period, up to 85% of women experience some type of mood disturbance. For most women, symptoms are transient and relatively mild (ie, postpartum blues); however, 10-15% of women experience a more disabling and persistent form of depression, and 0.1-0.2% of women experience postpartum psychosis.[1, 2, 3, 4]

I have another source that lists the treatment rate for therapy at 12% and medication rate even lower - not bolstering your view.

I guess we see the difference between someone just shy of their Psych masters (me) although I admit I will likely never finish, and someone who works as a bed pan cleaner in a detention house.

I will gladly wait for you to show me how we have changed the meaning of 'majority'. And in the meantime, show some compassion and get hen help, 8 years is too long for someone to fester. (even worse is if we assume hen is right and the only people she associates with are depressed. my flippant statement about it being Oz might not be too far off the mark....)

[quaddriver]

Oh and Gob, when you accuse someone of using a strawman, please take a few minutes to actually learn what that means. As demonstrated in your post, you do not.

I never claimed ANYTHING with respect to live births. I did claim however (using the 2009 CIA world factbook as a source) the population growths of the countries of births-deaths which of course proves beyond any argument, the fact that women continue to have children even tho most of them are suffering major depression as your wife claimed and you defended.

[Gob]

Oh and Gob, when you accuse someone of using a strawman, please take a few minutes to actually learn what that means. As demonstrated in your post, you do not.



The trouble is Quaddy that until I challenged you you had offered no facts at all, get it now?

Starting again..

Fertility rate USA (from wiki as you say )

The total fertility rate in the United States estimated for 2009 is 2.01 children per woman, which is below the sub-replacement fertility threshold of 2.1

Wiki does not give the fertility rate foe Aus; the figure is 1.9 per woman according to the world bank.

BTW the UK's rate is 1.91 so you were wrong about that too...

And according to the CIA factbook, which you claim as a source?

123 United States 2.06 2011 est.

139 United Kingdom 1.91 2011 est.

157 Australia 1.78 2011 est.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... 7rank.html

So again, you are wrong, just as with all you say, but this tine you gave a source which proves you wrong, nice one!

[quaddriver]

Oh and Gob, when you accuse someone of using a strawman, please take a few minutes to actually learn what that means. As demonstrated in your post, you do not.

I never claimed ANYTHING with respect to live births. I did claim however (using the 2009 CIA world factbook as a source) the population growths of the countries of births-deaths which of course proves beyond any argument, the fact that women continue to have children even tho most of them are suffering major depression as your wife claimed and you defended.

The trouble is Quaddy that until I challenged you you had offered no facts at all, get it now?

really? you mean when I said the growth rate of Oz vs the US (1.2 vs .98) was larger, that was not a FACT?

mebbe you need to go study what a FACT is. A fact is somethign that is true. When you are not familiar with the facts, one usually researches them. you did not.

[Gob]

See above....

[The Hen]

LOL

[Gob]

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position

quaddriver wrote:

this is exactly akin to claiming you will have sharp pain for life because you once had abdominal surgery.

Perfect strawman I believe.

[Grim Reaper]

mebbe you need to go study what a FACT is. A fact is somethign that is true. When you are not familiar with the facts, one usually researches them. you did not.

It's always so easy to hold other people to a standard while ignoring that standard for your own arguments.

You lied in your arguments and your lies were called out. Then you lied some more to try to cover your earlier lies. Maybe you'll eventually arrive at the truth after you run out of misinformation to spew.

[loCAtek]

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position

quaddriver wrote:

this is exactly akin to claiming you will have sharp pain for life because you once had abdominal surgery.

Perfect strawman I believe.

More like an analogy..

[quaddriver]

mebbe you need to go study what a FACT is. A fact is somethign that is true. When you are not familiar with the facts, one usually researches them. you did not.

It's always so easy to hold other people to a standard while ignoring that standard for your own arguments.

You lied in your arguments and your lies were called out. Then you lied some more to try to cover your earlier lies. Maybe you'll eventually arrive at the truth after you run out of misinformation to spew.

I challenge you to
a) point out one lie
b) point out where one lie was called out

of course it means you have to read what was said...

[quaddriver]

Oh and Gob, when you accuse someone of using a strawman, please take a few minutes to actually learn what that means. As demonstrated in your post, you do not.



The trouble is Quaddy that until I challenged you you had offered no facts at all, get it now?

Starting again..

Fertility rate USA (from wiki as you say )

The total fertility rate in the United States estimated for 2009 is 2.01 children per woman, which is below the sub-replacement fertility threshold of 2.1

Wiki does not give the fertility rate foe Aus; the figure is 1.9 per woman according to the world bank.

BTW the UK's rate is 1.91 so you were wrong about that too...

And according to the CIA factbook, which you claim as a source?

123 United States 2.06 2011 est.

139 United Kingdom 1.91 2011 est.

157 Australia 1.78 2011 est.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... 7rank.html

So again, you are wrong, just as with all you say, but this tine you gave a source which proves you wrong, nice one!

really?

2009 List by the CIA World Factbook

112 Australia 1.2

129 United States 0.98

132 New Zealand 0.94

157 United Kingdom 0.47

again your strawman. I never once mentioned a 'fertility rate' which you have typed thrice. I clear stated thrice 'population growth of births - deaths' which for everyone means 'new live people minus the dead ones'

So lettuce review:

I clearly stated

All, without exception, all women I have ever spoken to who have given birth, have revelled in the process, even the long labor natural ones. They also seem to like the pregnancy, especially AFTER.

To which was replied:

was hit badly with post natal depression. I know many, many, many women who felt exactly the same way.

All I can think is you haven't actually 'talked' to that many women about it.

and

I am glad such problems are not the norm in the US, unless I actually look at your country's stats and don't believe what you spout.

and

All I can think is he doesn't have much contact with women

So lets talk facts, since I and scooter were the only ones who actually posted any dealing with the subject, I posted a source that lists the PPD occurance at about 10% with <1 in 1000 suffering a very severe form, and 80% of the respondents suffering the day to week long 'baby blues' Scooter posted something that listed the PPD suffering rate as UP TO 1 in 5 or UP to 20% meaning JUST OVER 80% NON AFFECTED.

So, rationally, logically, and factually, if we consider the distribution per 1000 women to be the same in OZ vs the US, for every 1000 I speak to, anywhere from 800 to 900 DO NOT report having PPD. And only 1 reports having a severe form.

Hen, by her own words, believes the EXACT opposite, going to say as we see above that she encounters 'many many many women' to which I replied that is not the norm.

going by the facts, which no one disputes: the abilty to talk to 'x' number of women who did not suffer depression, major or not, after a pregnancy is not only plausible, it is LIKELY given that darn 80% number that keeps cropping up

(and mind you, the data both I and scooter reported made no mention of unaffected women, implying that ALL women suffer something)

going by the facts, the ability to talk to many many many women who suffer a severe bout as hen claims is plausible, but so is hitting the lottery. given the reported chances hens experience, by her own words, is indeed an anomoly, by my own words. And of course this begs what I brought up now thrice: how is it that she is able to hang around these severely depressed women, while not being a Dr in a major sanitorium? THAT is the real story.

Now as to Gobs claim about SSRI treatment being the majority. If we first discount the claim due to the fact that the majority of women do not suffer PPD, we then look what is reported. Drugs are only *1* of the treatments available, with therapy being the largest (as I pointed out) and we find that the treatment rates of therapy - you know - talking about it, is 12% with medication even less (which of course implies the MAJORITY (there goes that word again) is not treated at all. so if we assume that <12% is 11.9999%, those treated for PPD with drugs is STILL not the majority.

So is this overall dishonesty you and your buds exhibit still more of the same that was complained about over at CSB? When confronted with your own words and data you still insist you are right and everyone else is 'busted'?

Methinks if we gather up all who post in such ways, and compare to where these people are in REAL life, we find they are 'not very far along' at all.

Now THAT is a bit of research worth undertaking.

Dont worry, I do not expect you two to pony up and admit you spoke without looking. In fact, the reason I was able to off the cuff cite data which was backed up by research later, and you were not able to cite data which was not backed up by research later (the truth being neither of us googled the % of women suffering PPD before anyone posted) just shows that I am more in tune with the subject than either of you are. That is sad, cuz I dont work in the field and you claim to.

[The Hen]

Quad, Hen by her exact words believes that not all women who have given birth, have revelled in the process, even the long labor natural ones. Hen also believes that not all women seem to like the pregnancy, especially AFTER.

Hen has examples of how this isn't true and Hen doesn't believe you have talked to that many women about the birthing process.

Everything else you type is just your usual quad crap that I had hoped would have been left elsewhere.

Unfortunately ... you just can't help being you. Which is a pity, but understandable.