More Lunacy In TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF...

[Crackpot]

Not so much a right vs. left issue but one that is more likely to draw more support from the "leftist" end of the spectrum than the "right". Not that the "right" or "left" have all that much of a logical or cohesive rationale to their positions.

[Lord Jim]

Parents make decisions for their small children 24/7 and why this should be any different completely eludes me...

Why don't we wait till kids are 18 and then let them decide whether or not they want to vaccinated? Why don't we let them decide when they should start school? Or go to bed?

It's pretty obvious to me that the "freedom of choice" argument exists in this case because those advancing it believe it will result in what they want...(fewer circumcisions) it probably would since obviously adult circumcision is a far more extensive procedure; which is what makes the argument disingenuous.

But in any event, if that's the way you feel, then by all means don't have your child circumcised. But don't get in MY face and try to dictate and force your ideological view point on what should obviously be a parental decision.

As I've said, when I look at the available evidence, the vast bulk of the most current data shows that the health and medical benefits are clear. The downside is virtually non-existent. To me the choice is obvious.

Personally I believe the evidence is strong enough, and the risk so minor that a much stronger case could be made for making circumcision mandatory then for banning it (I believe that the increase in non-circumcision is something we are going to pay a medical and health price for as a society; just as much as with the increase in the number of kids who haven't been vaccinated) but I would not favor this because, unlike the banners, I don't believe in engaging in that level of interference in parental decisions.

(I still can't see a circumcision ban as any kind of "left v. right" issue at all.)

Really? You honestly believe that there are just as many conservative supporters of banning circumcision as liberal ones?

Wow....

Do you also think there are just as many conservatives as liberals who support ordinances to prevent people from smoking in their own homes?

You know of conservative communities where the issue is going to be put to a vote, or where the local governments are considering circumcision bans?

I think you're in denial on this issue Sue, and I think the reason is that it makes you uncomfortable to hold a position that puts you at odds with many liberals and in agreement with most conservatives. So you want to pretend this isn't the case.

[Rick]

Just out of curiosity (and not to derail the thread), do I qualify as Loony correction acknowledged Left?

To me?

No more so than I would consider Jimbob Rabid Right.

I do lean more towards Jim's thinking than yours though.

I say that with no animosity, because I don't ALWAYS disagree with your opinion on many subjects.

If I had to place myself in a niche I like Moderate/Conservative Independent (what can't spel).

Back to the OP then...

[Guinevere]

But don't get in MY face and try to dictate and force your ideological view point on what should obviously be a parental decision.

Can we get an amen, and would you please convince the rest of the conservatives of this point as well -- with respect to abortion, birth control, and the counseling regarding same.

[Lord Jim]

abortion, birth control, and the counseling regarding same.

Guin, I think that many conservatives do believe that those should be parental decisions when it comes to minor children. (Except of course for those that want them banned; particularly abortion) I certainly feel that way.

It's some on the left who don't want parents making those decisions.

[oldr_n_wsr]

If those "Toddlers and Tiara's" moms (and dads) can force their daughters (and some sons) into dressing up, outlandish makeup and into those "beauty" pagents, then parents should be able to choose for their sons whether to circumcise or not.

Don't know any guy who's been circumcised (or uncircumcised) with any mental problems stemming from the circumcision or lack there-of. But I can see a whole slew of mental problems for these "beauty princesses" later in life.

[Sue U]

I think you're in denial on this issue Sue, and I think the reason is that it makes you uncomfortable to hold a position that puts you at odds with many liberals and in agreement with most conservatives. So you want to pretend this isn't the case.

Well then let's review, Jim: You've got me (commie pinko), Guin (bleeding-heart liberal), Crackpot (moderate liberal), Keld (moderate conservative) and yourself (right wingnut) all lining up against a ban on infant circumcision, while you've got the Ozzies arguing the other side. So it looks to me like it's more of a cultural than a political division. And you yourself pointed out that the measure got on the SF ballot with just 7,700 signatures, which is hardly representative of anything in a city of more than 800,000. (And that doesn't even figure how many of the signatories actually support the measure vs. those who just think it should be put to a vote vs. those who had no idea what they were signining in the first place.) Jimminy Cricket, you could probably get 7700 signatures on a petition to declare the Girl Scouts a Lesbian Communist front organization.

Let me ask you this: Is there any genuine "liberal" SF politician who is actually leading the charge on this issue, or even lending it support? Or is this being promoted by some single-issue fringe group? Like Keld, my bet is that the ballot measure will be resoundingly rejected by the entire SF political spectrum.

[Long Run]

Makes you think it was someone looking to create a story and get some fame, much like the doomsday dude and the military funeral protesters. Be nice if everyone ignored the fringe.

[Rick]

It was initiated by Lloyd Schofield.

He actually (from what little I've read) seems well adjusted...

[Timster]

<snip>Well then let's review, Jim: You've got me (commie pinko), Guin (bleeding-heart liberal), Crackpot (moderate liberal), Keld (moderate conservative) and yourself (right wingnut) all lining up against a ban on infant circumcision, while you've got the Ozzies arguing the other side. So it looks to me like it's more of a cultural than a political division. <snip>

Oh, Oh, Oh Sue! Do me Do me!

Personally I would be against a ban also. Not for any religious reasons mind you but more that I believe that there can be health benefits. Just as I can see some definite advantages for non circumcised males of nomadic tribes. If my dick was dragging in the dirt, sand and ice and snow all day; I would want some extra protection to.

But we do not have that problem today.

I don't equate circumcision with mutilation like a clitorectomy as it does nothing to the functionality and again jmho think that it actually improves the aesthetics. [Not that it matters but I really like my circumcised cock.]

And I plain just don't like people trying to tell me how to raise my children. If they don't want to circumcise their children then they shouldn't do it. Simple.

[Gob]

(Oh, and thanks, Guin, you don't look too arrogant yourself.)

Sue, I hope you and Guin got the reference, I wasn't being offensive, or at least that was not my intent..

(Don't know shit about cookin, and is arrogant looking...)

[Guinevere]

I didn't get the reference, just figured there had to be one . . .

[Sue U]

I got it. Zappa. (And I know more than a little about cooking, notwithstanding my ethnic background.)

[Gob]

You got it!

As I say, no offense was intended.

[Sue U]

None taken; I'm going to see Dweezil Zappa ("Zappa Plays Zappa") in August (he's opening for Return to Forever).

[Gob]

You lucky sod!!

[Sue U]

Eat your heart out:

http://manncenter.org/events/2011-08-10 ... lays-zappa

[Gob]

CHICK COREA • STANLEY CLARKE • LENNY WHITE • JEAN-LUC PONTY • FRANK GAMBALE

Munch, munch, munch, munch, munch...

[Sue U]

CHICK COREA • STANLEY CLARKE • LENNY WHITE • JEAN-LUC PONTY • FRANK GAMBALE

Munch, munch, munch, munch, munch...

Yeah what a bunch of geezers! They're going to be playing the RTF back catalog, plus a bunch of new stuff, plus a bunch of the members' solo works. With Zappa opening, this show is gonna be like 13 hours long! And it's gonna rock, as long as no one breaks a hip.

We're taking my son the bass player, so he can see local-boy-makes-good Stanley Clarke, who is one of his heros. Last year we took him to see Marcus Miller in the Herbie Hancock show (he was subbing for Tal Wilkenfeld) at the same venue. Next we just have to get Victor Wooten to come to town.

[Lord Jim]

it's gonna rock, as long as no one breaks a hip.

Yeah, the most popular drugs being taken by the crowd at this concert will be lipitor, viagra, and nitroglycerin pills...

I wonder if there's still time to put in a bid for the Depends concession booth...