Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

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rubato
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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

Post by rubato »

dgs49 wrote:FACT: The Feds demanded that mortgage lenders lower their standards and modify their historical lending practices to lend money to those who were not creditworthy. Even Credit Unions were threatened with sanctions if they didn't increase their mortgage loans to people (and for property) they would not normally consider. They created the climate in which it became possible for banks to issue horrible loans, then sell the paper at a profit, thus resulting in an ocean of bad paper. The FACT that Freddie and Fannie did not buy ALL THE BAD PAPER does not change who was to blame for the bubble.
Not true.

The major portion of the subprime meltdown occurred in upper-middle class white and asian neighborhoods the CRA only effected poor black and hispanic areas.

Sorry!

Fanny and Freddie did not buy enough bad paper to cause the collapse. Period.


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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

Post by rubato »

Scooter wrote:"...

Trying to blame what happened in 2008-2009 on government policies enacted in the 1970s is getting pretty old.

Old, stupid, and hoary.

Only ideological idiots blame the meltdown on anything other than the financial services industry who bought nearly all the bad paper.

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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

Post by Scooter »

I don't think the subprime mortgages held by Fanny and Freddie came to $100 million.

ETA - Of course I meant $100 billion, and I was not far wrong. According to Bloomberg, the number was $114 billion. Less than 1% of the total portfolio = chickenfeed in comparison to the major culprits in subprime lending who made most of their money that way.
Last edited by Scooter on Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

Post by quaddriver »

rubato wrote: Fanny and Freddie did not buy enough bad paper to cause the collapse. Period.


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Fannie and Freddie did not buy ANY paper other than for their copiers. They ORIGINATED the bad paper. And they did so while specifically being prohibited by thier GSE charter.

Countrywide, which was probably the largest originator of subprime problems also did so by fudging the books and paying off 2 key political figures.

The paper, which of course then went bad was used as the basis for 2 large investment houses to go long on oil. Not only was the price of oil driven up, the money used to pay for it was monopoly money and we got to pay them off 100 cents on the dollar.

If you are going to pontificate about a well documented scam, at least get it right.

Dont take my word for it. Just ask Chris Dodd, Kent Conrad, Alphonso Jackson, Donna Shalala, Richard Holbrook, James Johnson, Angelo Mozilo, Barney Frank....Jesus I could go on...

And I will give you a clue. Not a single one was a republican.

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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

Post by quaddriver »

Scooter wrote:I don't think the subprime mortgages held by Fanny and Freddie came to $100 million.
that is how much a lawsuit against Mae sought to get in fines.

the bailout was about 300Billion. and as of the collapse, Mae and Mac held or guaranteed about HALF of a $12Trillion market. But dont take my word for it, ask Frankie Raines, Tim Howard or Leanne Spencer.

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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

Post by rubato »

Fanny and Freddie played a minor role in the subprime meltdown, at most. The facts supported by the evidence are: Fanny and Freddie bought a lot of mortgages. Fanny and Freddie pushed the boundaries in underwriting (only up to 2003 before a lot of the runup happened). Fannie and Freddie only underwrote traditional fixed-rate loans, none of the really toxic paper.

Privately-issued asset-backed securities that did not go through either Fannie or Freddie represented 20% of all outstanding home mortgages and nearly all of the toxic loans.



http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/200 ... e_and.html


"...
The fact that the volume of mortgages held outright or guaranteed by Fannie or Freddie grew so much faster than either total mortgages or GDP over this period would seem to establish a prima facie case that the enterprises contributed to the phenomenal growth of mortgage debt over this period. Krugman nevertheless concludes that the GSEs aren't responsible for our current mess:

But here's the thing: Fannie and Freddie had nothing to do with the explosion of high-risk lending a few years ago, an explosion that dwarfed the S.& L. fiasco. In fact, Fannie and Freddie, after growing rapidly in the 1990s, largely faded from the scene during the height of the housing bubble.

Partly that's because regulators, responding to accounting scandals at the companies, placed temporary restraints on both Fannie and Freddie that curtailed their lending just as housing prices were really taking off. Also, they didn't do any subprime lending, because they can't: the definition of a subprime loan is precisely a loan that doesn't meet the requirement, imposed by law, that Fannie and Freddie buy only mortgages issued to borrowers who made substantial down payments and carefully documented their income.

These developments appear clearly in the graph above after 2003, which is marked with a vertical line. And certainly much of the dramatic appreciation in house prices came in the two years after the GSEs began to contract. ... "


see below:

"...
July 15, 2008
Did Fannie and Freddie cause the mortgage crisis?

Some thoughts about the role played by the GSEs in the run-up in mortgage debt and house prices.

Paul Krugman ably lays out the case for why it's conceivable that Fannie and Freddie could have made a contribution:

Here's the background: Fannie Mae-- the Federal National Mortgage Association-- was created in the 1930s to facilitate homeownership by buying mortgages from banks, freeing up cash that could be used to make new loans. Fannie and Freddie Mac, which does pretty much the same thing, now finance most of the home loans being made in America.

The case against Fannie and Freddie begins with their peculiar status: although they're private companies with stockholders and profits, they're "government-sponsored enterprises" established by federal law, which means that they receive special privileges.

The most important of these privileges is implicit: it's the belief of investors that if Fannie and Freddie are threatened with failure, the federal government will come to their rescue.

This implicit guarantee means that profits are privatized but losses are socialized. If Fannie and Freddie do well, their stockholders reap the benefits, but if things go badly, Washington picks up the tab. Heads they win, tails we lose.

Such one-way bets can encourage the taking of bad risks, because the downside is someone else's problem.

Fannie and Freddie had purchased $4.9 trillion of the mortgages outstanding as of the end of 2007, 70% of which the GSEs had packaged and sold to investors with a guarantee of payment, and the remainder of which Fannie and Freddie kept for their own portfolios. The fraction of outstanding home mortgage debt that was either held or guaranteed by the GSEs (known as their "total book of business") rose from 6% in 1971 to 51% in 2003. Book of business relative to annual GDP went from 1.6% to 33%.

Sum of retained mortgage portfolio and mortgage backed securities outstanding for Fannie and Freddie (from OFHEO 2008 Report to Congress) divided by (1) total 1- to 4-family home mortgage debt outstanding (from Census for 1971-2003 and FRB for 2004-2007) and (2) annual nominal GDP.
Image

The fact that the volume of mortgages held outright or guaranteed by Fannie or Freddie grew so much faster than either total mortgages or GDP over this period would seem to establish a prima facie case that the enterprises contributed to the phenomenal growth of mortgage debt over this period. Krugman nevertheless concludes that the GSEs aren't responsible for our current mess:

But here's the thing: Fannie and Freddie had nothing to do with the explosion of high-risk lending a few years ago, an explosion that dwarfed the S.& L. fiasco. In fact, Fannie and Freddie, after growing rapidly in the 1990s, largely faded from the scene during the height of the housing bubble.

Partly that's because regulators, responding to accounting scandals at the companies, placed temporary restraints on both Fannie and Freddie that curtailed their lending just as housing prices were really taking off. Also, they didn't do any subprime lending, because they can't: the definition of a subprime loan is precisely a loan that doesn't meet the requirement, imposed by law, that Fannie and Freddie buy only mortgages issued to borrowers who made substantial down payments and carefully documented their income.

These developments appear clearly in the graph above after 2003, which is marked with a vertical line. And certainly much of the dramatic appreciation in house prices came in the two years after the GSEs began to contract.

S&P/Case-Shiller Composite 10 home price index (data source).
Image

Even more striking is the explosion of home mortgages held in the form of privately-issued asset-backed securities that did not go through either Fannie or Freddie. By 2006, these represented 20% of all outstanding home mortgages.

Dollar value of home mortgages held by private asset-backed securities (from Census for 1971-2003 and FRB for 2004-2007) divided by (1) total 1- to 4-family home mortgage debt outstanding and (2) annual nominal GDP.

Image

On the other hand, Tanta contributes this:

Fannie and Freddie .... didn't like losing their market share, and they pushed the envelope on credit quality as far as they could inside the constraints of their charter: they got into "near prime" programs (Fannie's "Expanded Approval," Freddie's "A Minus") that, at the bottom tier, were hard to distinguish from regular old "subprime" except-- again-- that they were overwhelmingly fixed-rate "non-toxic" loan structures. They got into "documentation relief" in a big way through their automated underwriting systems, offering "low doc" loans that had a few key differences from the really wretched "stated" and "NINA" crap of the last several years, but occasionally the line between the two was rather thin. Again, though, whatever they bought in the low-doc world was overwhelmingly fixed rate (or at least longer-term hybrid amortizing ARMs), lower-LTV, and, of course, back in the day, of "conforming" loan balance, which kept the worst of the outright fraudulent loans out of the pile. Lots of people lied about their income (with or without collusion by their lender) in order to borrow $500,000 to buy an overpriced house in a bubble market. They weren't borrowing $500,000 from the GSEs.

Michael Carliner (hat tip: Economist's View) adds:

Fannie and Freddie are ... subject to regulation by HUD under mandates to serve low- and moderate income households and neighborhoods. As originators and investors with more energy than brains expanded their (subprime) lending to those borrowers and neighborhoods, it was difficult for Fannie and Freddie to increase their shares. They didn't want to buy or guarantee subprime loans, correctly perceiving them to be insanely risky. Instead they purchased securities created by subprime lenders, taking only the supposedly-safe tranches. Those portfolio purchases were counted toward their obligations to lend to lower-income home buyers, but are now part of the write-downs.

For my part, I have two questions for those who take the position that the GSEs played no significant role in causing our current mortgage problems. First, what economic justification is there for the dramatic increase in the share of loans guaranteed or held by the GSEs between 1980 and 2003 that is seen in the first graph presented above? What sense did it make to increase the ratio of such loans to GDP by a factor of 12 over this period?

Second, what forces caused the explosion of private participation in a much more reckless replication of the GSE game? A year ago, I suggested one possible answer-- private institutions reasoned that, because the GSEs had developed such a huge stake in real estate prices, and because they were surely too big to fail, the Federal Reserve would be forced to adopt a sufficiently inflationary policy so as to keep the GSEs solvent, which would ensure that the historical assumptions about real estate prices and default rates on which the models used to price these instruments were based would not prove to be too far off.

Is that the answer to the second question? I'm not sure. But if anybody has a better answer, I'd still like to hear it.

In the mean time, I very much agree with Krugman that the most egregious problems were not caused by anything Fannie or Freddie themselves did. But I disagree that their actions played no role in causing the underlying problem we face today.
... "

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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

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yes rubato, MAe and Mac were prohibited from backing or making or buying non-conforming loans. We all know that. the reality is, they did so ANYWAYS. And as we all know, they did so after illegally (without any public approval from congress who has to publically approve) lowering their own bar or standard as to what is considered conforming in PRECISELY the 2002/2003 timeframe. As I pointed out, at the time of the collapse Mae and Mac held or backed half of a $12T market. Some might call that considerable.

that the actual cost of solvency was closer to 300B and hence about 5% of portfolio is irrelevant. their asset ratio however was about 3% meaning if they defaulted, a good portion of the us financial market would have been worthless. Too big to fail was the coined term. Mae and Mac were one of the entities too big to fail.

that the firm countrywide was also perhaps the largest holder of subprime is also irrelevant to the mae and mac situation, but both instances point to one thing: a small group of people controlled both institutions and engineered the collapse for politial reasons. as you may also recall, the best democrat running for office in 2008 - john mcain, testified during the backing of certain legislation that the books of places like countrywide were absolute fiction and more oversight was needed asap to offset the removal of oversite in 1995 and 1999. He went nowhere. what happened happened. dont try to reinvent reality.

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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

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oh and rubato, what is the point of posting quotes that directly contradict one another to prove your point? confuse us with offsetting data? you do realize that everything I said in my previous post is backed with what you quoted? rough day?

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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

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Apparently someone has been on vacation a lot lately since this site is supposedly blocked where they work...
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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

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Apparently you dont have me on block as claimed. Suffice to say, you have no idea where I post from. I can use any of a dozen proxies or a couple hundred proxies if I dont care to get the 'post made' message back. (you should see how my phone calls look on caller Id) this post here should show up as one made from a govt gateway in philly...right about...now...

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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

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quaddriver wrote:Suffice to say, you have no idea where I post from.
I know you can't be posting from work because you told us this site is inaccessible from any government computer, having been classified as "malicious". You wouldn't have been lying, would you?

Just make sure Tim can reach you when he needs a light bulb changed in his office.
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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

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Far be it from me to rise to the obvious bait, but I clearly said it is inaccessible behind the firewall (govt computers only connect to the internet from behind the firewall or VPNing into the firewall when one is physically outside the firewall)

that being said, my own 'location' says 'wherever the man sends me'. 'man' of course being slang for govt. so how hard is it to envision me being 'sent' somewhere (or gasp...at home many if not most of my postings occur outisde of any standard TOD hours...) posting/reading from one of the other *5* laptops or *2* smart phones using one of the *4* ISP accesses I have? why its almost like I do computer things for a living.

and 'tim' would never ask a GS9 computer repairman to change a lightbulb. that would be outside the job classification. gotta have rulz.

good thing you didnt pollute andrew's thread by going off topic tho...would hate to see that.

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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

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Someone obviously takes a lot of breaks on company time to post to internet forums...nice work if you can get it, good for you.
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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

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My tax dollars at work! :nana

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

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First, there was the hope that a "starve the beast" strategy in the face of surpluses might discourage Democrats from initiating explosive spending initiatives such as happened when they initiated the "War on Poverty," when they overspent the increased revenues generated by the Reagan tax cuts of the 1980's, and when they sought to spend the "peace dividend" resulting from the breakup of the USSR (sometimes referred to as the end of the Cold War).
But the Republicans were running Congress. The Democrats were in no position to initiate any spending initiatives, "explosive" or otherwise.

So the Republican policy was "Let's stop paying off the debt. Let's dig ourselves deeper into debt. Because someday, the Democrats might start spending the surpluses on something else."

That is conservatism? Since when?
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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

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Economics is out of my league however even I can see that "Starve the Beast" has been a failure.

It may have been a good theory, and quite possibly if enacted in a way that it actually controlled spending it may have worked.

In it's current incarnation it is a total bust, Reagan and Bush I saw this and increased taxes in both their terms.

Unfortunately for me I think the cure is just about as bad as the disease.

For future generations...

As an aside, I am adding 2 links (purely selfish on my part) that I want to go back to later.

An article in Forbes by Bruce Bartlett

Unfortunately PDF by William A. Niskanen
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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

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keld feldspar wrote: Economics is out of my league however even I can see that "Starve the Beast" has been a failure.

It may have been a good theory, and quite possibly if enacted in a way that it actually controlled spending it may have worked.

In it's current incarnation it is a total bust, Reagan and Bush I saw this and increased taxes in both their terms.

... "

"Starve the beast" = increase spending?

That is what all of the last 5 Republican presidents have done.


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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

Post by Andrew D »

The best explanation remains the obvious explanation: Some ideologues were horrified at the prospect of a government that provided the services which most Americans want while remaining solvent. To put a stop to that, they had to drive the government back into insolvency. And they did.

Conservative? Or radically reactionary?
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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

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Reagan was called a radical reactionary for harking back to a 'golden era' which never actually existed: "We didn't have a race problem when I was a boy." Ronald Reagan

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Re: Conservatives: Thrown Under The Bus By Right-Wingers

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How Today's Conservatism Lost Touch with Reality
Conservatives used to be the ones with heads firmly based in reality. Their reforms were powerful because they used the market, streamlined government and empowered individuals. Their effects were large-scale and important: think of the reform of the tax code in the 1980s, for example, which was spearheaded by conservatives. Today conservatives shy away from the sensible ideas of the Bowles-Simpson commission on deficit reduction because those ideas are too deeply rooted in, well, reality. Does anyone think we are really going to get federal spending to the level it was at under Calvin Coolidge, as Paul Ryan's plan assumes? Does anyone think we will deport 11 million people?

We need conservative ideas to modernize the U.S. economy and reform American government. But what we have instead are policies that don't reform but just cut and starve government — a strategy that pays little attention to history or best practices from around the world and is based instead on a theory. It turns out that conservatives are the woolly-headed professors after all.
Just thought it interesting...
Sometimes it seems as though one has to cross the line just to figger out where it is

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