Do you remember this?

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Sue U
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Re: Do you remember this?

Post by Sue U »

liberty wrote:So you believe there is a NAZI force in the country but a Communist power.
I have no idea what this sentence (?) even means.
liberty wrote:You don't believe there are those in this country that are dedicated to the goal of the "dictatorship of the proletariat", which of course is the truest form of democracy, right?
This is a pretty big country, and I regularly see individuals dedicated to all types of wingnuttery, but you are obviously clueless as to what the Communist Party USA is all about. As for "dictatorship of the proletariat," that phrase does not mean what you think it means. In Marxist theory, and in the simplest terms, it refers to the class that holds political and economic power -- and in the communist context specifically, power exercised collectively through democratic processes. "Dictatorship" does not mean authoritan rule by an individual or clique; it means the societal class that has the power (and in this particular usage, majoritarian power) to assert its political and economic will over the society (and in this particular usage over the minority capitalist class). This is in contrast to the current state of "dictatorship of the bourgeoisie," in which a minority class of capitalists and their lackeys exert political and economic power to oppress and exploit labor.

The "truest form of democracy" is mob rule. I think I have repeatedly made it very clear that I am against that particular form of social organization.
Last edited by Sue U on Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GAH!

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Sue U
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Re: Do you remember this?

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liberty wrote:Sue, this is the way a freedom loving people must deal with communist. You have to do them before they do to you, more decent human beings can be dealt with humanly.

I can’t find fault with General Pinochet; it was a matter of deferred self defense he either killed them while he had the chance or they would kill him and his family.
If this is truly what you believe, you are either a monster or an idiot, possibly both.
GAH!

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Sue U
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Re: Do you remember this?

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Lord Jim wrote:Image
Right there -- erroneously placed after the first question mark!

Sheesh.
GAH!

liberty
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Re: Do you remember this?

Post by liberty »

Sue U wrote:
liberty wrote:Sue, this is the way a freedom loving people must deal with communist. You have to do them before they do to you, more decent human beings can be dealt with humanly.

I can’t find fault with General Pinochet; it was a matter of deferred self defense he either killed them while he had the chance or they would kill him and his family.
If this is truly what you believe, you are either a monster or an idiot, possibly both.

Tell it to the millions of victims murdered and brutalized by the communist. I can hear the screams of thousands German girls and women being raped by the glorious soviet army; open your heart and you might hear it also. I am no monster, just a realist.
Soon, I’ll post my farewell message. The end is starting to get close. There are many misconceptions about me, and before I go, to live with my ancestors on the steppes, I want to set the record straight.

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dales
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Re: Do you remember this?

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Image

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
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Andrew D
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Re: Do you remember this?

Post by Andrew D »

Here's an odd tidbit. Haydn's (perhaps derivative) melody Austria was used for Deutschland Uber Alles. It is also the melody of the hymn Glorious Things Of Thee Are Spoken.

That hymn is customarily sung at "Battle Of Britain" services throughout the Anglican world. As a chorister at Grace Cathedral in San Francisco, I sang in several of those services. So I observed congregations -- and on a special occasion such as that, large congregations -- belting out Glorious Things.

How weird is that?

A special service commemorating the Battle of Britain -- Britain's triumph of resistance over the Nazi bombardment. Old guys standing (or barely standing or sitting as upright as they could in their wheelchairs) in the pews. Many of them in their uniforms. Their decades-old uniforms, often busting at the buttons.

British flags. Those bagpipe guys (Black Watch?) doing that weird take-half-a-step-then-pause-then-put-your-foot-down thing that they do. Memorial penants. Tears dripping down the cheeks of aged veterans from memories which I am glad I do not share.

Pomp. Circumstance. Pageantry. High-Church Anglican bombast in full sway.

And what is the signature hymn of the whole service?

The Nazi national anthem.

Reworded, of course, but still. The Nazi national anthem.

It makes a certain kind of sense: Take their own national anthem and rub it in their faces.

And that's what got everyone going the most. Anglican (Episcopalian) congregations love to sing. (Catholics, take note: Get a better hymnal, and you'll get better audience participation.)

Still, what really moved every congregant, even the ones who couldn't carry a tune if their lives depended on it, to sing with all the gusto they could possibly bring to it? Not Rule, Brittania! Not God Save The Queen.

Glorious Things Of Thee Are Spoken. The Nazi national anthem.

On one level, entirely understandable.

On another level, weird.
Reason is valuable only when it performs against the wordless physical background of the universe.

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Scooter
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Re: Do you remember this?

Post by Scooter »

liberty wrote:Sorry but that is what I remember
Given the track record of your "memory", a good rule of thumb would be that the truth is is the opposite of how you remember it.
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

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Rick
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Re: Do you remember this?

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Sue U wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:Image
Right there -- erroneously placed after the first question mark!

Sheesh.
You ain't right...
Sometimes it seems as though one has to cross the line just to figger out where it is

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Sue U
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Re: Do you remember this?

Post by Sue U »

keld feldspar wrote:You ain't right...
Thanks for noticing.
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Sue U
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Re: Do you remember this?

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liberty wrote:
Sue U wrote:
liberty wrote:Sue, this is the way a freedom loving people must deal with communist. You have to do them before they do to you, more decent human beings can be dealt with humanly.

I can’t find fault with General Pinochet; it was a matter of deferred self defense he either killed them while he had the chance or they would kill him and his family.
If this is truly what you believe, you are either a monster or an idiot, possibly both.

Tell it to the millions of victims murdered and brutalized by the communist. I can hear the screams of thousands German girls and women being raped by the glorious soviet army; open your heart and you might hear it also. I am no monster, just a realist.
You are not a realist. You are a deluded paranoid nutcase with frankly bizarre, ill-considered and uninformed views. If you were a realist, you wouldn't have the knee-jerk reactions that you do, either politically or socially. If you were a realist, you would have a much more complex understanding of the world. You can't find fault with Pinochet? Your are an idiot. You think you have to kill all communists? You are a monster.
GAH!

rubato
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Re: Do you remember this?

Post by rubato »

Sue U wrote: "...
You are not a realist. You are a deluded paranoid nutcase with frankly bizarre, ill-considered and uninformed views. If you were a realist, you wouldn't have the knee-jerk reactions that you do, either politically or socially. If you were a realist, you would have a much more complex understanding of the world. You can't find fault with Pinochet? Your are an idiot. You think you have to kill all communists? You are a monster.
succinct, and accurate.

yrs,
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Gob
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Re: Do you remember this?

Post by Gob »

Sue; remind me to stay on the right side of you. :D
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Sue U
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Re: Do you remember this?

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rubato wrote:succinct, and accurate.
I was short on time.
Gob wrote:Sue; remind me to stay on the right side of you. :D
Honestly, most of the time I'm really very easy to get along with.

However, I would like to apologize to liberty for my harsh and intemperate remarks last night. I was frustrated; I have spent years on these boards (both here and CSB) trying to educate liberty in particular because he seems to actually take the time to think about these things. I felt that if I could make him understand that there actually is a difference between Nazis and Communists, that "leftists" are not the enemies of democracy, and that there is in fact no government/communist plot to imprison Americans in FEMA reeducation camps, that he might begin to develop a more rounded and reasonable view. It is extremely disappointing to see him still offering unquestioning support to tyrants and torturers out of some fanatical and irrational fear of anything that hints of socialism. However, my name-calling and personal attack was a highly inappropriate response, and I am sorry for doing that.
GAH!

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Lord Jim
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Re: Do you remember this?

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dictatorship of the proletariat," that phrase does not mean what you think it means. In Marxist theory, and in the simplest terms, it refers to the class that holds political and economic power -- and in the communist context specifically, power exercised collectively through democratic processes.
Well Lib, you've got a lot of celebrated company in not properly understanding what that means....

Including Vladimir Lenin, Josef Stalin, Georgi Malenkov, Nikita Khrushchev, Leonid Brezhnev, Yuri Andropov, Mao tse Tung, Chou En Lai, Ho Chi Minh, Kim il Sung, Kim Jong il, Nicolai Ceausescu, Fidel Castro, Josef Bronz Tito, Pol Pot, Enver Hoxha, Erich Honecker, Władysław Gomułka, ...and many, many others...

Who apparently didn't get the memo about "dictatorship" not really meaning "dictatorship"....
ImageImageImage

liberty
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Re: Do you remember this?

Post by liberty »

Sue U wrote:
rubato wrote:succinct, and accurate.
I was short on time.
Gob wrote:Sue; remind me to stay on the right side of you. :D
Honestly, most of the time I'm really very easy to get along with.

However, I would like to apologize to liberty for my harsh and intemperate remarks last night. I was frustrated; I have spent years on these boards (both here and CSB) trying to educate liberty in particular because he seems to actually take the time to think about these things. I felt that if I could make him understand that there actually is a difference between Nazis and Communists, that "leftists" are not the enemies of democracy, and that there is in fact no government/communist plot to imprison Americans in FEMA reeducation camps, that he might begin to develop a more rounded and reasonable view. It is extremely disappointing to see him still offering unquestioning support to tyrants and torturers out of some fanatical and irrational fear of anything that hints of socialism. However, my name-calling and personal attack was a highly inappropriate response, and I am sorry for doing that.
Sue, I accept your apology and I know it is sincere because I have always liked and admired you and believed you to be an honorable woman.

That is why it hard for me to understand some of the things you believe, particularly your attitude towards communism. It appears to me that you correctly see Nazism as an evil but communism as benign. Before as I go any further I would like clarify something: I do not see all forms of socialism as the same. There is a big difference between Fabian socialism and Marxist communism; the difference can be measured in the body counts. Nazis and Communist may be motivated by different things but the end result is the same. If the country was about to be taken over by Nazi would it not be time for extreme measures or would you wait until the cattle cars arrived?

I have given your attitude towards Nazism and communism some thought and it makes me wonder; do you have family in Europe that has suffered at the hands of the Nazis?
Soon, I’ll post my farewell message. The end is starting to get close. There are many misconceptions about me, and before I go, to live with my ancestors on the steppes, I want to set the record straight.

liberty
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Re: Do you remember this?

Post by liberty »

?
____________________________________________________________________________
http://newsbusters.org/node/7779

Reporting for the Enemy: Reuters, Time Employed Vietcong Agent for 15 Years
By Matthew Sheffield | September 20, 2006 | 15:43

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This story about a Vietnamese man who was a spy for the communists during the war as well as a reporter for Reuters and Time magazine is nothing short of an outrage. It also makes you wonder how many agents for totalitarianism are working in the press today. An's assertions of impartiality are all too familar as well. (An old MRC MediaWatch item on him is here.)

HANOI, Vietnam - Pham Xuan An, who led a remarkable and perilous double life as a communist spy and a respected reporter for Western news organizations during the Vietnam War, died Wednesday at age 79. [...]

In the history of wartime espionage, few were as successful as An. He straddled two worlds for most of the 15-year war in Indochina as an undercover communist agent while also working as a journalist, first for Reuters news service and later for 10 years as Time magazine's chief Vietnamese reporter — a role that gave him access to military bases and background briefings.

He was so well-known for his sources and insight that many Americans who knew him suspected he worked for the CIA.

Before Saigon fell to the communists, An worked to help friends escape, including South Vietnam's former security chief who feared death if he was found by northern forces. An later revealed his true identity as a Viet Cong commander, but said he never reported any false information or communist propaganda while in his role as a journalist.

In a 2000 interview with The Associated Press, An said he always had warm feelings for his press colleagues and for the United States, where he attended college at Fullerton, Calif. But deep down he remained a "true believer" in the communist cause as the best way to free Vietnam of foreign control.

"I fought for two things — independence and social justice," he said.

An's political and military contacts made him an essential source for other Vietnamese reporters working for foreign news organizations. He was known as the soft-spoken, chain-smoking oracle of "Radio Catinat," as the Saigon rumor mill was called.

But few, if any, suspected he was a communist spy.

Former media colleagues expressed mixed feelings, from bemusement to a sense of betrayal, after An revealed in the 1980s that he had been a spy.

Outside critics vilified An for his role in espionage activities that may have led to the deaths of many Americans and South Vietnamese. But most of An's ex-colleagues refrained from criticizing his deception. [...]

An told ex-colleagues in later years that he made secret trips to the jungle to confer with Viet Cong leaders. He said he knew in advance of major communist initiatives, including the 1968 Tet Offensive and North Vietnam's 1972 invasion aimed at destroying the Saigon regime.

An insisted he remained true as a journalist — never planting false or misleading information, realizing this could reveal his clandestine role.

"The truth was that I knew many things that I never told anyone," he said. "And because of this I was able on a couple of occasions to save Time from major embarrassment by telling them that a certain piece of important information was not true."

In the end, all his shilling for the communists didn't get him that much love from the regime:

An's Western connections caused senior Hanoi officials to distrust him despite his wartime record. They sent him to a postwar "re-education" school, and in 1997 refused him an exit visa to take part in a Vietnam War symposium in Washington, D.C.

He sometimes spoke candidly of being disillusioned with Vietnam's victorious leaders. In a meeting with three former American press colleagues in Ho Chi Minh City in 2005, An described them as "much more corrupt" than the Saigon officials he knew during the war.

At the same time he was made a brigadier general in retirement and a few years ago was promoted to major general.

Given his familiarity with the French, Viet-Minh, Viet Cong, South Vietnamese and American armies, An said in the 2000 interview, "I told them they should make me a five-star general. I don't think they understood my sense of humor."





About the Author
Matthew Sheffield is the creator of NewsBusters and president of Dialog New Media, an internet marketing and design firm. Click here to follow Matthew Sheffield on Twitter.

Read more: http://newsbusters.org/node/7779#ixzz1RdF7hvE4
Soon, I’ll post my farewell message. The end is starting to get close. There are many misconceptions about me, and before I go, to live with my ancestors on the steppes, I want to set the record straight.

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dales
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Re: Do you remember this?

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Image

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

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Scooter
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Re: Do you remember this?

Post by Scooter »

So you've given up trying to substantiate the ridiculous assertion you made in the OP?
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

liberty
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Re: Do you remember this?

Post by liberty »

Scooter wrote:So you've given up trying to substantiate the ridiculous assertion you made in the OP?
No, my last post is an alternate track. If I find something to substantiate the op, you will know it.
Soon, I’ll post my farewell message. The end is starting to get close. There are many misconceptions about me, and before I go, to live with my ancestors on the steppes, I want to set the record straight.

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Scooter
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Re: Do you remember this?

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The world holds its collective breath waiting for you to be able to substantiate your fantasy world.
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

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