The Myth of Dionysus'

[loCAtek]

Mortal Mother

Now, what I've usually done with these mythological figures, is post their story, or the parts of their story; that are said to be comparable to Jesus. What's been said about Dionysus, in this case, was that he had a mortal mother and a divine father.
However, in researching that story; I've discovered that the Dionysus tale has had many accounts and therefore he has had multiple parents. Depending on the story being told, his parents include Semele, Persephone, Demeter, Dione, Hades and Zeus. All of these figures are gods or descended from gods;

The two most prominent origin stories are;

: There are two (incompatible) stories, one obviously a Theban story, the other Orphic in origin:

(1) DIONYSOS, son of ZEUS and SEMELE,

princess of Thebes (daughter of Kadmos and Harmonia, and thus the granddaughter of Ares and Aphrodite, and great-granddaughter of Poseidon (through the line Poseidon 5 Agenor 5 Kadmos). Poseidon had had relations with Libya, who was a daughter of Epaphus, son of Io and Zeus, and thus Semele is great-great-great grandaughter of Zeus too.
Angry (as usual) that ZEUS had been fooling around and gotten a girl pregnant, HERA disguised herself as a nurse of Semele (BEROE) and talked Semele into asking her lover Zeus to show himself to her in his full heavenly glory. After much whining he did so, and Semele was consumed by the divine emanations (or a thunderbolt). Dionysos was six months along at the time, and Hermes snatched him up (cf. Apollo and Coronis) and sewed him up in Zeus' thigh, from which he was born three months later (cf. Athena from Zeus' forehead). Semele had a tomb in THEBES, which is in the orchestra and referred to in Euripides play, the Bacchae. Her sisters (Autonoe, Ino, and Agave) were not prepared to believe that their sister's lover was Zeus, or that Dionysos was at least semi-divine. This is the reason why Dionysos visits Thebes in the Bacchae. Dionysos later rescued his mother from Hades, and she was installed in heaven under the name THYONE.

(2) DIONYSOS, son of Zeus and PERSEPHONE.

In this story Persephone slept with Zeus in the form of a serpent, and the `original' name of the child was Zagreus. But at HERA's instigation the TITANS seized the child, tore him apart, and ate him (cannibalism). Only his heart was preserved, and Athena took it to Zeus,
(a) who swallowed it (as he swallowed Metis, Athena's mother);
(b) who served it up to Semele in a drink, which made her pregnant.

The result was DIONYSUS, the `TWICE-BORN' (one of his cult-titles at Thebes).
Dionysus was born (alphabetically) at Dracanum, Icarus, Naxos and on a Mount Nysa (which is apparently in Ethiopia, Libya, India, Thrace, or somewhere else). Apparently Dionysos was raised by Nymphs on this Mount Hyades (though he was also raised elsewhere by Aunt Ino, who was given the child by Hermes; and also at Macris in Euboea).



John Paul Adams, Professor
Department of Modern and Classical Languages and Literatures
College of Humanities
California State University Northridge

Some say that the translation of the name Dionysus, could be ‘the one with two mothers.’", in any case he was not mortal, but born a god.

So, how did Semele get mistaken for a mortal, and a virginal one at that?

Wiki says;

In one version of the myth, Semele was a priestess of Zeus, and on one occasion was observed by Zeus as she slaughtered a bull at his altar and afterwards swam in the river Asopus to cleanse herself of the blood. Flying over the scene in the guise of an eagle, Zeus fell in love with Semele and afterwards repeatedly visited her secretly.[5]

Following the link, this was the Semele written as a character of The Dionysiaca by Nonnus, in the late 4th and/or early 5th century CE, and not the Ancient Greek, pre-Christian one.

[thestoat]

Now, what I've usually done with these mythological figures, is post their story, or the parts of their story; that are said to be comparable to Jesus

No, you have concentrated on a single, usually uncontested point, and then selectively quoted to try to appear knowledgeable.

What's been said about Dionysus, in this case, was that he had a mortal mother and a divine father.

Ah - excellent case in point. A very quick wiki lookup shows there are many more parallels than that - and once again you are ignoring them in your selective quotations. Here you are ...

The earliest discussions of mythological parallels between Dionysus and the figure of the Christ in Christian theology can be traced to Friedrich Hölderlin, whose identification of Dionysus with Christ is most explicit in Brod und Wein (1800–1801) and Der Einzige (1801–1803).[39] Modern scholars such as Martin Hengel, Barry Powell, and Peter Wick, among others, argue that Dionysian religion and Christianity have notable parallels.
They point to the symbolism of wine and the importance it held in the mythology surrounding both Dionysus and Jesus Christ;[40][41] though, Wick argues that the use of wine symbolism in the Gospel of John, including the story of the Marriage at Cana at which Jesus turns water into wine, was intended to show Jesus as superior to Dionysus.[42]
Additionally, some scholars of comparative mythology argue that both Dionysus and Jesus represent the "dying-and-returning god" mythological archetype.[43] Other elements, such as the celebration by a ritual meal of bread and wine, also have parallels.[44] Powell, in particular, argues precursors to the Christian notion of transubstantiation can be found in Dionysian religion.[44]
Another parallel can be seen in The Bacchae wherein Dionysus appears before King Pentheus on charges of claiming divinity is compared to the New Testament scene of Jesus being interrogated by Pontius Pilate.[42][44][45]
E. Kessler in a symposium Pagan Monotheism in the Roman Empire, Exeter, 17–20 July 2006, argues that Dionysian cult had developed into strict monotheism by the 4th century CE; together with Mithraism and other sects the cult formed an instance of "pagan monotheism" in direct competition with Early Christianity during Late Antiquity.[46]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysis#P ... ristianity

[loCAtek]

Um kay, how is Christ's death like Dionysus's?

What are the wine parallels?

[Sean]

You're the only one talking about death here. It seems that you are saying that if there are no death parallels then there are no parallels. You tried the same trick with Mithras and failed miserably. There was a lesson to be learned right there!

[loCAtek]

What? That, there's no pleasing you? I've known that for some time now; which is why don't care what you think.

[Sean]

I think the truth is that the only person you are trying to convince with these threads is yourself...

[thestoat]

Um kay, how is Christ's death like Dionysus's?

What are the wine parallels?

Oh dear. Did you read the text? I'll repeat the specific points that seem to confuse you, with a little helpful emphasis

Additionally, some scholars of comparative mythology argue that both Dionysus and Jesus represent the "dying-and-returning god" mythological archetype

the symbolism of wine and the importance it held in the mythology surrounding both Dionysus and Jesus Christ

CS Lewis saw all these parallels but found they did not conflict with his faith. I don't understand why they trouble you so much that you have to continuously argue with evermore vacuous statements. If some text is placed right in front you you, just read it - don't pretend it isn't there.

[loCAtek]

Additionally, some scholars of comparative mythology argue that both Dionysus and Jesus represent the "dying-and-returning god" mythological archetype

.

..but stoat, in that myth Dionysus does not die and go to the underworld. He is taken from his mother's womb and sewn into his father's thigh [yuck] but he does not die.

In the titan myth, of tearing him to pieces, the full tale has him turning himself into different animals to try to escape them, which Christ doesn't do; [Dionysus is slaughtered as a bull calf and impiously eaten by the Titans.[43] - Wiki] and before he is completely dead, his heart is eaten by his father Zeus, in order to impregnate his mother Semele. A hold over from the Egyptians who thought the heart held the soul of the person. ...therefore he was not dead, and did not go to the underworld.

The only time Dionysus went to the underworld and returned was when he rescued his mother Semele, afterwards she became Thyone, goddess of the moon-- this while he was still a living being.

[thestoat]

The point is, lo, that the story of Christ was nicked from those of many other gods - not just one. There are parallels with many gods. The virgin birth, humble origins, miracles, disciples, resurrection, etc is a common theme through them all. Sure, you can pick a specific god and specific points and demonstrate in those instances that they are different to the Christ story. But that is not the point.

[Crackpot]

Archetypes are like that

[loCAtek]

The point is, lo, that the story of Christ was nicked from those of many other gods - not just one. There are parallels with many gods. The virgin birth, humble origins, miracles, disciples, resurrection, etc is a common theme through them all. Sure, you can pick a specific god and specific points and demonstrate in those instances that they are different to the Christ story. But that is not the point.

I've been demonstrating point by point, why it's that's such a stretch, when many of pagan versions of the virgin births weren't; the resurrection wasn't; the 12 disciples didn't. etc.

If you want to stretch the truth that much then: Elivis fits the bill.

[Sean]

Yep, and if one aspect doesn't fit the bill then obviously none do!

[thestoat]

Lo, why are you being so obtuse? Do you really not get it? Are you saying the following?

1. None of the old gods were descended from virgins
2. None of the old gods were born of humble origin
3. None of the old gods performed miracles
4. None of the old gods were resurrected

I am not saying "all of the old gods were as above" but I am saying some were and the various bits were cherry picked for the Christ story.

Let me give you a single, simple example. I think it is fair to say that wikipedia is a trusted source on these forums. So:

According to Persian mythology, Mithra, the sun god, was born at dawn on the 22nd of December to a virgin mother

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_winter_festivals

Thus I suggest - and believe - that the idea of Christ's virgin birth was plagiarized from stories such as these. Mithras came first. If you disagree with this then I would be interested to hear your reasons why.

[Crackpot]

Lo is right in that for all I can find Mithras was born from a rock

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births

[Sean]

Lo, why are you being so obtuse?

Because the unthinkable alternative would be to admit that she is wrong about something Stoat.

[thestoat]

Because the unthinkable alternative would be to admit that she is wrong about something Stoat.

Ah yes, I think I am coming to that conclusion

Lo is right in that for all I can find Mithras was born from a rock

Well that can't be quite true, CP, since I link to a wiki article just above that (and quote it too) stating his birth and the virgin mother bit.

But I do agree there isn't much in wiki about it - either way. A lot of it just isn't mentioned - Christianity has the written word to refer too in a single book that transcends everything. So I did a little digging around this and came up with a very interesting article. Most of the stuff I came up with was either from an atheist site or a religious site and I thus discounted that for bias reasons. So avoiding the likes of i_love_jesus.com and atheists_rule.com, how about this ...

Though no texts of Mithraism survive, various fragments, inscriptions and critical commentaries show that Mithraism and early Christianity both possess similar religious doctrines. The resemblances between the two churches were so striking as to impress even the minds of antiquity.

Among the recorded similarities between Christianity and Mithraism are the following, namely:

· Virgin birth
· Twelve followers
· Killing and resurrection
· Miracles
· Birthdates on December 25
· Morality
· Mankind’s saviour
· Known as the Light of the world

Both Christianity and Mithraism prided themselves in brotherhood and organised their members as church congregations. Both religions purified themselves through baptism, and each participated in the same type of sacrament, bread and wine.

Mithras was born in a cave; a cave is likewise the setting for the nativity of Jesus in the widely-read and influential Gospel of James, which though not canonical is the earliest surviving document attesting the veneration of Mary and claiming her continuing virginity. Both nativities were celebrated on December 25, and each saviour was visited by shepherds with gifts. Both Mithraism and Christianity considered Sunday their holy day, despite early Christianity observing the Jewish Sabbath for centuries. Many have noted that the title of Pope is found in Mithraic doctrine and originally seemingly prohibited in Christian doctrine. The words Peter (rock) and mass (sacrament) have original significance in Mithraism.

http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewArt ... p?id=44793

Granted, this is about Mithras and so strictly I should post to the lo's Mithras thread, but I don't see enough coherence to feel it worth while. And the link talks of many other gods such as Attis, Nimrod, etc. The point here, as a number of us are trying to make, is that the Jesus story is not unique. That isn't, of course, to say that this stuff didn't happen to Jesus (though I feel it very unlikely).

[Sean]

[localogic] Well I can't see any reference to Mithras walking on water there Stoat which renders all of the other similarities null and void. Besides that, I've seen a lot of people confuse Mithras with Paul Daniels. [/localogic]

[thestoat]

Now that's magic

[Sean]

Well I'm sure we've all read about the time that Jesus walked on water ably assisted by the lovely Debbie McGee.

(Hen should get that reference...)

[thestoat]

Debbie McGee was once interviewed, the best question being "What made you want to marry multi millionaire Paul Daniels?"