The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

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Sean
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by Sean »

Scooter wrote: Addiction results in impairment of a variety of physical and mental functions.
As does tiredness* yet that is not a disease. There is also a distinction to be considered here between alcoholism and simply being pissed.
Addictions to various substances manifest distinguishing signs and symptoms.
So do headaches*. Again, not a disease.
Addiction is a response to both environmental factors (the substance to which one is addicted) and inherent defects in the organism (the propensity to become addicted).
The propensity part is just a theory to the best of my knowledge. I could be wrong.
And no, I do not agree that I have a disease of any description. I have an addiction.
That's your choice. Perhaps you could accept that others might see it differently, and not solely as a means of excusing their own behaviour or their decision not to seek treatment.
There are many things I believe to be wrong that others see differently. This does not mean I should change my mind or keep my opinion to myself. :nana



*Just in case you are tempted to yell "Strawman!" about now allow me to clarify my point: A horse fulfils much of the criteria to be a cow. Hooves, hair, herbivore, mammal etc. And yet it is not a cow.
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

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Daisy
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by Daisy »

I'm still with Sean on this one. By labelling alcoholism as a disease it can absolve the addict (not victim or sufferer) from the personal responsibility of their situation. The gradual erosion of personal responsibility in society these days is subject enough for a topic on it's own and is one of my major bugbears.

Just because addicts may need treatment from the medical profession to get off the substance they are addicted too still doesn't make a disease. Call it a condition, call it an addiction, call it what you want but IMO it's not and never as been a disease. You don't get better from cancer by making a conscious choice to, but you can recover from an addiction by choosing to stay clean one day at a time.

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Crackpot
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by Crackpot »

Hear that scooter you have no personal responsibility over the effects of your disease wether or no they may be within the realm of your influence or control. :roll:
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Rick
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by Rick »

Scooter wrote:
Sean wrote:Can you show me where it does fit?
Addiction results in impairment of a variety of physical and mental functions.
Addictions to various substances manifest distinguishing signs and symptoms.
Addiction is a response to both environmental factors (the substance to which one is addicted) and inherent defects in the organism (the propensity to become addicted).
A treatable disease. Yet alcoholism is said to be an incurable disease. Why would that be?
Treatable and curable are not the same thing. Once an addict, always an addict, regardless of whether he/she has managed to avoid the addictive substance.
And no, I do not agree that I have a disease of any description. I have an addiction.
That's your choice. Perhaps you could accept that others might see it differently, and not solely as a means of excusing their own behaviour or their decision not to seek treatment.
Again I submit gambling "addiction"...
Sometimes it seems as though one has to cross the line just to figger out where it is

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Miles
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by Miles »

It doesn't make sense to me.
Perhaps thats because your not and alcoholic. ;)
I expect to go straight to hell...........at least I won't have to spend time making new friends.

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Scooter
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by Scooter »

Daisy wrote:By labelling alcoholism as a disease it can absolve the addict (not victim or sufferer) from the personal responsibility of their situation.
Why? Since when does someone become absolved of the responsibility to seek treatment for their disease? If someone has pneumonia, isn't there an expectation that they will seek treatment? If they don't, and they die, wouldn't the natural reaction be to say, "it's their fault for not seeking treatment", rather than absolve them because they have a disease?
You don't get better from cancer by making a conscious choice to
Cancer doesn't magically cure itself. You have to make the decision to get treatment, same as addiction.
Crackpot wrote:Hear that scooter you have no personal responsibility over the effects of your disease wether or no they may be within the realm of your influence or control. :roll:
Yeah, I wish I had know years ago that I bore absolutely no responsibility for getting infected with HIV because it's a disease. :loon
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

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dales
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

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Something to ponder...
Neuroscience explains why changing addictive behavior is so difficult
in Conditions | 2 responses

inShare.0Originally published in MedPage Today

by Kristina Fiore, MedPage Today Staff Writer

By the end of January, many New Year’s resolutions have been tossed out with the leftover holiday cookies. That’s because change is hard — and neuroscientists are learning why.

Advances in neuroimaging have enabled researchers to peer inside the brains of addicts and patients with addictive behaviors. They can see in real-time what gets patients hooked: how the brain’s reward system — based largely on the neurotransmitter dopamine — thirsts for more, while inhibitory control centers experience a system failure.


The pattern is similar across all kinds of behaviors — from cocaine and tobacco addiction to overeating. That’s why changing your mind may be the first step toward breaking a habit, but altering the brain’s neural machinery is the real challenge.

Hijacked Pathways
Drug-taking and other addictive behaviors “hijack” the brain’s reward system, says Petros Levounis, MD, director of the Addiction Institute of New York at St. Luke’s and Roosevelt Hospitals in Manhattan.

In normal patients, dopamine plays a major role in motivation and reward, surging before and during a pleasurable activity — say, eating or sex — to make patients want to repeat a behavior that’s crucial to the survival of the species.

Dopaminergic pathways connect the limbic system, responsible for emotion, with the hippocampus, etching rewarding behaviors into the brain by creating strong, salient memories.

The problem arises when the memory and the craving to recapture it takes over a person’s life.

“Imagine what a strong hold these hijacked reward pathways take on our brains and our whole existence when they’re so closely connected, geographically and anatomically speaking, with our memories and our emotions,” Levounis says.

As the dopamine surge repeats and repeats, it gains speed, but the brakes begin to fail: Normal function in the brain’s frontal lobes, responsible for inhibitory control and executive functioning (read: willpower), tends to decrease in addicts.

“Ultimately,” Levounis says, “the war on drugs is a war between the hijacked reward pathways that push the person to want to use, and the frontal lobes, which try to keep the beast at bay. That is the essence of addiction.”

Similar Patterns
These neural pathways have been well studied in the brains of hardcore addicts. Now, researchers say they see similar pathways involved in other bad behaviors.

Gene-Jack Wang, MD, of Brookhaven National Laboratory on New York’s Long Island, has conducted several brain imaging studies of obese patients using PET-CT scans.

The scans have revealed similarities in brain activity — or a lack thereof — between patients addicted to cocaine or alcohol, and those “addicted” to eating. Normally, the PET scan lights up when a contrast of radioactive glucose is metabolized, revealing an area of red activity in the center of the brain.

But in both drug-addicted and obese patients, the scans show very little red activity, because there aren’t enough receptors to which the radioactive glucose can bind. Wang says the decreased availability of dopamine receptors is the brain’s way of coping with a constant dopamine overload.

“If a person constantly has an excess of dopamine, the brain will down-regulate,” Wang says, explaining the principle commonly referred to as tolerance. “Once the system is down-regulated, we have to do more in order to get the same amount of feeling in our normal state.”

Thus, obese patients “will want to eat more in order to compensate for their down-regulated system.”

In other experiments, Wang and his colleagues have also found that a higher body mass index (BMI) correlated with lower prefrontal cortex function — the area associated with inhibitory control.

“If they’re obese,” Wang said, “they have a problem controlling their eating behaviors.”

Those studies also revealed that a higher BMI was linked to a decrease in memory and executive functioning.

Out of Control
Ed Susman was 293 pounds when he decided to join a clinical trial for an investigational weight-loss drug and chronicle his year-long experience for MedPage Today.

Eating, to him, was a “compulsion” — as was biting his nails, a habit he picked up at age 4.

Over the course of the trial, not only did Susman lose 52 pounds, he also stopped his nail-biting.

He doesn’t yet know if he was in the drug arm of the trial, but he strongly suspects he wasn’t experiencing a placebo effect.

“I believe I was on the drug because it controlled a compulsion that I had had for 50 years,” Susman says of the nail-biting. “This stopped it cold.”

Unfortunately, he says, the same didn’t happen with his eating habits, but he’s gained back only 10 of those 52 pounds in the year since his participation in the trial ended.

The still-investigational drug is lorcaserin — a combination of benzazepine and hydrochloride, two neurological agents. Susman says it is “supposed to improve your willpower, your ability to overcome compulsions.”

Lorcaserin is a selective 5-HT2C receptor agonist, working through the serotonin system, which regulates appetite, mood, and motor behavior.


Two other investigational obesity drugs target the dopamine reward system — Contrave, which is a combination of bupropion and naltrexone, and Qnexa, which combines phentermine and topiramate.

“Some medications that have used similar dopamine modulation, until now, have failed,” Wang said. “These two companies are using the command of the modulation of the dopamine system with other neurological systems, such as the opiate or norepinephrine system. According to the trials, they’ve been very effective.”

Wang called the new medications “a bright light for the treatment of obesity.”

Kicking the Habit
Basically, the idea of medications that act on the dopamine system is “to cool down those reward pathways,” Levounis says. There are two strategies for doing so: an agonist strategy, or an antagonist strategy.

The agonist strategy is “feeding the beast, providing activity in the cell so that the cravings go down,” Levounis said. Classic examples are nicotine patches, or methadone for opioid dependence.

On the other hand, the antagonist strategy is to block the receptors. Naltrexone, for example, will block opioid receptors so that the drug addict won’t feel anything if he or she attempts to get high.

“After a while, you say, ‘This is not worth my time, my money, my trouble,’ so you stop using,” Levounis explains.

These have been the two main strategies in addiction pharmacotherapy, but there’s now a “third avenue” — the partial agonist approach.

The partial agonist is one molecule that blocks most receptors while still providing just a little bit of an “oomph” to calm cravings. That’s how varenicline (Chantix) helps smokers quit, and how buprenorphine gets junkies off heroin or other opioids.

But what about inhibitory control? What if medications could ramp up will power?

“It’s an area of active research,” Levounis says. “There are some medications proposed, but nothing to write home about.”

He said treatment is typically twofold. For addicts, psychiatrists will try to “cool down” the reward pathways, often with medication. Then, they target the diminished frontal lobes.

“We try to beef up the frontal lobes as much as we can, and we do that with psychotherapy,” Levounis said.

Researchers agree that psychotherapy is key to regaining self-control, and it’s the predominant treatment used in patients with addictive behaviors.

Mark Smaller, PhD, a psychoanalyst in private practice in Chicago, said psychotherapy often reveals an underlying cause for an addiction or compulsive behavior. Usually, it’s anxiety or depression.

Acknowledging those problems may help change behaviors. Once they’re realized, a patient can start working against them, with the help of the brain’s own neuroplasticity. Essentially, neurons can disconnect and reconnect, or loosen their connections and tighten them, which often manifests in noticeable change.

“[Psychological] insights can actually begin to change brain chemistry and diffuse compulsions,” he said. “If you address those issues, you can have a positive impact on your life that can change the chemistry of your brain.”

Smaller said it “creates a new psychological — if not neurological — structure that can help regulate behavior.”

Although research on neuroplasticity is relatively young, the concept of “rewiring” the brain is not new.

In fact, too often, the electrician metaphor has been employed as an excuse for indulging, an explanation for a New Year’s resolution deferred: “I can’t stop eating chocolate, I’m just not wired that way.”

Visit MedPageToday.com for more psychiatry news.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

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loCAtek
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by loCAtek »

keld feldspar wrote:

Again I submit gambling "addiction"...
Doctors treat gambling addiction as brain disease


When there was nothing left in the bank and his seven credit cards were maxed out, Curt finally sought help from Gamblers Anonymous and the UCLA Gambling Studies Program rather than become a thief. “In order to continue, I knew I would have had to rob a bank. I didn’t want to go down that road. But others have.”

The losses from gambling addiction — defined by mental health professionals as a brain disease at its most elemental form
— have become so troubling that the state recently dedicated a total of $15 million for three years to fund treatment programs for any California resident who has the addiction or has been hurt by it, including family members of compulsive gamblers.

“They are oftentimes suffering very much. They get depressed and start using drugs themselves,” said psychiatrist Dr. Timothy Fong, co-director of the UCLA Gambling Studies Program, which is working with the state Office of Problem Gambling to design, develop and evaluate the statewide treatment program. Ironically, Fong said, family members often unknowingly play the role of enablers by continually supplying compulsive gamblers with money while at the same time urging them to stop. “They yell and scream, which makes the person want to gamble even more.” The average debt that gambling addicts accumulate is between $40,000 and $70,000.

Gambling addicts make up 1 percent to 2 percent of the population, but that rate is closer to 4 percent in California, almost one in every 25 Californians — a not-so-surprising fact considering that the state is home to approximately 89 card clubs, roughly 100 tribal casinos, the state lottery and racetracks. And, of course, it’s close to gambling meccas like Las Vegas and Reno. The widespread popularity of Internet gambling further exacerbates the problem.

“It’s an enormous issue, but an invisible one,” Fong said. While legal gambling has grown into an $8 billion to $9 billion business in the state, no state funds were available to treat addicts until July, 2009. With this first infusion of state money, the picture is looking more optimistic.

rubato
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by rubato »

keld feldspar wrote:
rubato wrote:One could say the same about a fatal allergic reaction to shellfish.





yrs,
rubato
Don't really think that's analogous.

I know a person that has had a reaction just sitting next to someone eating shellfish.

I don't know of anyone getting drunk sitting next to a drunk...
The person sitting next to someone who has a fatal reaction to shellfish is not less nor more responsible for their own reaction.

Are you stupid? The point of the analogy is that the person who has a genetic maladaptive reaction to alcohol does know this fact in advance.

yrs,
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by rubato »

Daisy wrote:I'm still with Sean on this one. By labelling alcoholism as a disease it can absolve the addict (not victim or sufferer) from the personal responsibility of their situation. The gradual erosion of personal responsibility in society these days is subject enough for a topic on it's own and is one of my major bugbears.

Just because addicts may need treatment from the medical profession to get off the substance they are addicted too still doesn't make a disease. Call it a condition, call it an addiction, call it what you want but IMO it's not and never as been a disease. You don't get better from cancer by making a conscious choice to, but you can recover from an addiction by choosing to stay clean one day at a time.
I have already mentioned the difference between justification and explanation.

Are you unable to understand this?

The "disease" model may explain and usefully describe but not justify all of the behaviors of the condition.

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Sean
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by Sean »

Daisy wrote:By labelling alcoholism as a disease it can absolve the addict (not victim or sufferer) from the personal responsibility of their situation.
Scooter wrote:Why? Since when does someone become absolved of the responsibility to seek treatment for their disease? If someone has pneumonia, isn't there an expectation that they will seek treatment? If they don't, and they die, wouldn't the natural reaction be to say, "it's their fault for not seeking treatment", rather than absolve them because they have a disease?
Crackpot wrote:Hear that scooter you have no personal responsibility over the effects of your disease wether or no they may be within the realm of your influence or control. :roll:
Now boys, play fair. What you have done there is totally misrepresent Daisy's words.
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

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Scooter
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by Scooter »

No, we haven't, actually. She doesn't like classifying addiction as a disease because (she claims) it can be used to excuse the addict from doing anything about it. We are merely transposing that presumption to another disease and showing that it does nothing of the kind. People are responsible for the choices they make about their disease, regardless of whether it is addiction or anything else.
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

rubato
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by rubato »

Sean wrote:
Daisy wrote:By labelling alcoholism as a disease it can absolve the addict (not victim or sufferer) from the personal responsibility of their situation.
Scooter wrote:Why? Since when does someone become absolved of the responsibility to seek treatment for their disease? If someone has pneumonia, isn't there an expectation that they will seek treatment? If they don't, and they die, wouldn't the natural reaction be to say, "it's their fault for not seeking treatment", rather than absolve them because they have a disease?
Crackpot wrote:Hear that scooter you have no personal responsibility over the effects of your disease wether or no they may be within the realm of your influence or control. :roll:
Now boys, play fair. What you have done there is totally misrepresent Daisy's words.
No we have not.

You, and Daisy, are unable to understand a simple distinction.



yrs,
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Sean
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by Sean »

And you are an arrogant twat who thinks that constantly harping on about his supposed 'wealth' will somehow impress people here... :lol:
Why on earth would you include yourself as one of those I was addressing? Who rattled your cage anyway?

Daisy didn't mention 'treatment' in her post as Scoot implied. Neither did she state what CP claimed she did.

There is no distinction involved here. Just a lack of basic reading comprehension on your part.
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

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Sean
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by Sean »

Scooter wrote:No, we haven't, actually. She doesn't like classifying addiction as a disease because (she claims) it can be used to excuse the addict from doing anything about it. We are merely transposing that presumption to another disease and showing that it does nothing of the kind. People are responsible for the choices they make about their disease, regardless of whether it is addiction or anything else.
I beg to differ. She didn't claim anything of the sort. As I said to cuntchops up there she didn't mention treatment. What Daisy actually said was that the alcoholic can absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions (those being the action of drinking itself and whatever actions that drinking leads to) because they have a 'disease'.
It is a valid point. By all means argue it if you disagree but don't misinterpret it to suit your opinion.

On a side note, I wonder how people who have this 'disease' have had it medically diagnosed as such...
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

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Sean wrote:What Daisy actually said was that the alcoholic can absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions (those being the action of drinking itself and whatever actions that drinking leads to) because they have a 'disease'.
So I am HIV+. I assume you agree that to be a "disease".

Does that mean I bear no responsibility for (a) the actions that led me to contract this disease, or (b) any actions I may take including infecting other people by having unprotected sex, etc.? Of course not. Why would seeing alcoholism as a disease be any different? As an alcoholic, the decision to bring on my disease by drinking was my responsibility, as are any actions I may take which harm others because of my disease (driving drunk, etc.).
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

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Sean
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by Sean »

Scooter wrote:
Sean wrote:What Daisy actually said was that the alcoholic can absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions (those being the action of drinking itself and whatever actions that drinking leads to) because they have a 'disease'.
So I am HIV+. I assume you agree that to be a "disease".

Does that mean I bear no responsibility for (a) the actions that led me to contract this disease, or (b) any actions I may take including infecting other people by having unprotected sex, etc.? Of course not. Why would seeing alcoholism as a disease be any different? As an alcoholic, the decision to bring on my disease by drinking was my responsibility, as are any actions I may take which harm others because of my disease (driving drunk, etc.).
Scoot, why would I wish to compare HIV+ with alcoholism when I believe that one is a disease and the other is not? You can compare all you wish but to me it's apples and oranges. I certainly am not about to defend a position which I haven't taken.

You believe that there are comparisons, I don't.
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by Scooter »

Obviously it's not a position you have taken. It's a position that you refuse to see the merit in no matter that other posters have presented one valid argument after another. And finally, moving the goalposts is no longer possible to avoid addressing those arguments, so you resort to begging the question.

That's fine, Sean, you're right and everyone else is wrong. Happy now?
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

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Sean
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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by Sean »

That's beneath you Scoot.

You want to back up those accusations you just made?
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

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Re: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

Post by Scooter »

Anyone who reads the thread knows exactly what I mean. You want to take that as a concession that I can't back up what I said? Fine, you win that one too. Happy?
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

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