The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

[Sean]

I'm not out to win or score points from you Scoot as I think you well know. You're being a little childish here.
Neither of course am I going to change my opinion simply because you don't wish to hear it.

What I am interested in is honest debate. Baseless and unsubstantiated accusations form no part of what I consider to be honest debate.

[Scooter]

Honest debate also consists in not deflecting or just plain ignoring opposing arguments, both of which you have done in spades in this thread.

[Sean]

More of those ridiculous accusations...

I'm not interested in playground games Scoot. If you wish to debate the actual topic I'll be around...

[BoSoxGal]

I have a bone to pick with you, Sean.

You posted that headache is not a disease. As a migraineur of 20+ years, I take issue with that contention. Some of the most advanced thinking on migraine considers all headache to be migraine, with those of us suffering the worst end of the spectrum being the ones who cannot achieve relief from OTC meds. In my case I have lost at minimum 3 full years of my life to migraine pain so excruciating as to leave me totally incapacitated. No way that's not disease!

I'm in the camp that alcoholism is also a disease, just like addiction to things such as drugs, food, gambling, and even sex. The neuroscientific research in recent years clearly establishes that there is altered brain chemistry in people who suffer these addictions. While personal responsibility shouldn't be overlooked as a necessary component to treatment, the fact is that with a diseased brain, 'willpower' alone isn't likely to fix the problem.

I encourage people with addiction to seek intensive help & support through 12 step, therapy, family/friends and commit everything they can to staying clean - but the fact remains the success rate of rehab, 12 step, etc. remains low overall because it's very difficult to overcome brain chemistry/wiring. I simply don't believe that all the people who can't stay sober are just weak willed people without sufficient motivation to heal. The day we figure out how to effectively repair the brain chemistry of the people whose bad wiring causes them to be debilitated by substances that others can manage to use recreationally in moderation will be a happy day for all of us, because we all pay the cost of addiction in our society.

[Sean]

I deliberately wrote headaches rather than migraines BSG. Perhaps I could have made it clearer that I was referring to tension headaches rather than migraine headaches. If I have more than a couple of glasses of red wine it gives me an immediate headache. I can't and don't consider that a disease. Migraine is of course a completely different matter and I have nothing but sympathy for your condition.

BTW I agree with almost everything you wrote in your second and third paragraphs (with the exception of the "alcoholism is also a disease" bit of course... ). Nobody from this side of the fence suggested that the personal responsibility factor involved refusal of treatment. It's more to do with excusing one's actions whilst drunk (including the act of getting drunk).

Again I wonder what percentage of people afflicted with alcoholism have had their 'disease' medically diagnosed. Studies have shown the 75-80% of doctors (depending on which study you read) do not consider alcoholism to be a disease:

Many physicians reject the disease theory of alcoholism. One study found that only 20 percent of physicians believe that substance addiction is a disease. In addition, 55 percent believe that there is "no effective treatment" for it.(T. McLellan. R-Considering Addiction Treatment: How Can Treatment Be More Accountable And Effective? A Continuing Medical Education (CME)Course. Cranston, Rhode Island, Association for Medical Education and Research on Substance Abuse, 2006.)

Another study found that only 25 percent of physicians believed that alcoholism is a disease. The majority believed alcoholism to be a social or psychological problem instead of a disease. (S.I. Mignon. Physicians' Perceptions of Alcoholics: The Disease Concept Reconsidered. Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly, 1996, v. 14, no. 4, pp. 33-45)

A survey of physicians at an annual conference of the International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous reported that 80 percent believe that alcoholism is merely bad behavior instead of a disease. (Barrier to Treatment. Alcoholmd - Information About Alcohol and Medicine)

Dr. Thomas R. Hobbs says that "Based on my experiences working in the addiction field for the past 10 years, I believe many, if not most, health care professionals still view alcohol addiction as a willpower or conduct problem and are resistant to look at it as a disease." (T.R. Hobbs. Managing Alcoholism as a Disease. Physician's News Digest, 1998.)

Alcholics Anonymous says that "Some professionals will tell you that alcoholism is a disease while others contend that it is a choice" and "some doctors will tell you that it is in fact a disease." (Alcholics Anonymous. What Is Alcoholism? http://www.alcholics-anonymous.com/what ... holism.htm)

Dr. Lynn Appleton says that "Despite all public pronouncements about alcoholism as a disease, medical practice rejects treating it as such. Not only does alcoholism not follow the model of a 'disease,' it is not amenable to standard medical treatment." She says that "Medical doctors' rejection of the disease theory of alcoholism has a strong basis in the biomedical model underpinning most of their training" and that "medical research on alcoholism does not support the disease model." (Lynn M. Appleton. Rethinking medicalization. Alcoholism and anomalies. Chapter in editor Joel Best's Images of Issues. Typifying Contemporary Social Problems. NY: Aldine De Gruyter, 1995, page 65 and page 69. 2nd edition

"Many doctors have been loath to prescribe drugs to treat alcoholism, sometimes because of the belief that alcoholism is a moral disorder rather than a disease," according to Dr. Bankole Johnson, Chairman of the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Virginia. Dr Johnson's own pioneering work has made important contributions to the understanding of alcoholism as a disease.
Source

[Rick]

Are you stupid? The point of the analogy is that the person who has a genetic maladaptive reaction to alcohol does know this fact in advance.

Yes I guess I am Rubato, for bothering to post here at all...

[Crackpot]

The issue Sean is you are taking the position that it is not a disease on the basis of people using it as an excuse to act like an insufferable jackass. truth is people may act like insufferable jackasses regardless of what ever disease they may or may not have and any having a disease of any stripe doesn't absolve the the diseased from protecting others from the effects of that disease.

You have also said that you don't think it is a disease because it can be countered by a sheer act of will in reality that is only half true. I quit smoking through an act of will. Haven't had a cigarette in over 5 years and even more amazingly with one notable exception I did it without developing ill will against those that still smoke (just don't drive with your fucking cigarette hanging out the fucking window leaving me captive to have to smell it) the thing is the major part of that success has been the acquisition of the knowledge (through many failures and relapses) that there isn't going to be a time when I can "just have one" since even if I do so that will serve to feed the illusion that I have control over it which will lead me closer to another and so on and so forth until I am smoking full time once again. It is the same with any addiction once you lose "control" over it there is no going back. It is more than behavior but Behavior is a large part of it in that it requires the desire to stop.

[Scooter]

Studies have shown the 75-80% of doctors (depending on which study you read) do not consider alcoholism to be a

Except that you are quoting your source selectively. Before referencing those three contrary studies, the article states:

The current mainstream scientific and medical view is that alcoholism is a disease, although some debate on this topic still occurs.

[rubato]

And you are an arrogant twat who thinks that constantly harping on about his supposed 'wealth' will somehow impress people here...
Why on earth would you include yourself as one of those I was addressing? Who rattled your cage anyway?

Daisy didn't mention 'treatment' in her post as Scoot implied. Neither did she state what CP claimed she did.

There is no distinction involved here. Just a lack of basic reading comprehension on your part.

I mention our income because I speak from personal knowledge about the effects of the tax codes an the rich as well as the poor and can cite concrete examples based on that understanding. I can also say with perfect certainty that I do not envy nor resent the rich because we are rich by any reasonable measure. I also think that it matters to point out that I advocate raising my own taxes because it is in the larger interest (and, in my opinion, in my personal interest as well) I am the same person who made less than 1/10th as much as now and I am aware of that fact. I don't think that making more money makes anyone better than anyone else; I know for a fact that it does not. Your own foolish resentment is your own doing.


But you both fail to be able to distinguish between explanation and justification. If the disease model is the most effective method of treatment then it is the one we should use. The 'disease' model does not justify anything. Being addicted to cigarettes (for example) does not excuse the fact that one is behaving immorally to both oneself and one's community.


Personally, I am more interested in being successful at treating alcoholics (or getting people to quit smoking) and finding the most effective ways of stopping their destructive personal behavior; for their own sakes as well as for the rest of us. But others, like yourselves, are more interesting in blaming people than solving problems.



yrs,
rubato

[Sean]

Studies have shown the 75-80% of doctors (depending on which study you read) do not consider alcoholism to be a

Except that you are quoting your source selectively. Before referencing those three contrary studies, the article states:

The current mainstream scientific and medical view is that alcoholism is a disease, although some debate on this topic still occurs.

Fair enough Scoot. The reason I quoted what I did was because it was relevant to the point I had just made. There is an awful lot more that could be quoted for both sides of this argument.

[Sean]

The issue Sean is you are taking the position that it is not a disease on the basis of people using it as an excuse to act like an insufferable jackass. truth is people may act like insufferable jackasses regardless of what ever disease they may or may not have and any having a disease of any stripe doesn't absolve the the diseased from protecting others from the effects of that disease.

That's only one part of my argument. However it is a large one and one that hits home on a deeply personal level.

You have also said that you don't think it is a disease because it can be countered by a sheer act of will in reality that is only half true.

That was Daisy actually but I am in agreement with her so I'll let you off on that one.

I quit smoking through an act of will. Haven't had a cigarette in over 5 years and even more amazingly with one notable exception I did it without developing ill will against those that still smoke (just don't drive with your fucking cigarette hanging out the fucking window leaving me captive to have to smell it) the thing is the major part of that success has been the acquisition of the knowledge (through many failures and relapses) that there isn't going to be a time when I can "just have one" since even if I do so that will serve to feed the illusion that I have control over it which will lead me closer to another and so on and so forth until I am smoking full time once again. It is the same with any addiction once you lose "control" over it there is no going back. It is more than behavior but Behavior is a large part of it in that it requires the desire to stop.

May I ask CP, did you ever think of your nicotine addiction as a disease?

[Crackpot]

I thought of it as an addiction. I think of addiction as a subset of a broader disease category of which there are many types.

(And earlier you made a similar argument. so there )

[loCAtek]

[oldr_n_wsr]

Hi, I'm oldr_n_wsr and I'm an alcoholic.

I don't give a hoot if it's called a disease, and addiction or an allergy although personally I think the adiction to alcohol is closer to an allergy. When one eats something that they are allergic to, their body chemistry changes. So it is with alcoholics. The change I get (your milage may vary) is that once I have one drink, I will drink until there is no more alcohol or I pass out. Not having the first is key. And I don't think there is any kind of "cure", that one day I will be able to have just one drink. I believe (and many an alcoholic who has relapsed can tell you) that even after years of not drinking, having just one is out of hte question, that no matter how long the sobriety span, having one drink will lead to many many more.

Calling it a disease does not absolve anyone from anything, and only an alcoholic would think it does. It doesn't absolve them from having their first drink nor their tenth. It dosn't absolve them from the lieing and cheating we did to others in order to get our "fix". It doesn't absolve them from the physical and mental harm we caused to others (usually those we love most).

Alcoholism is a "ME" affliction and the only thing I have found to counter the affliction is the "WE" program of AA.

And yes, my doctor did say I was an alcoholic although he did not refer to it as a disease.

And I do believe it is partially genetic (not that it being genetic is an excuse, my genes did not pick up a drink and pour it down my throat) as it seems to run in families.
Also, how is it that native Americans seem overly susceptable to alcoholism?

Disease, allergy, lack of will power, whatever you call it, being an alcoholic sucks. And doing shitty things sucks too be them done sober or drunk. There is no excuse for doing shitty things. Any self admitted alcoholic knows he/she did some pretty shitty things to many people, and that is addressed in more than one step (4/5 and 8/9).