Reflections On September 11, 2001

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dales
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Reflections On September 11, 2001

Post by dales »

First, I placed my thoughts in the "Politics" section. I in no way want to "politicize" this tragedy.

I attended church today and the program included a short presentation honoring those who had died that day. I believe that there is very little to disagree with, here.

Where I did have a bone to pick is the where the "war on terror" was brought up. Yes, we need to pray for the men and women who are in the military who are in Afghanistan and Iraq. More than 4,000 service members have given their lives for "freedom" in these countries since we became involved.

What I have to ask is this.

Why are we there?

And what "freedoms" do the Afghan and Iraqi people enjoy since our invasion?

Seems to me like the same old chaos reigns supreme, with suicide bombings occuring on a daily basis.

The pastor said they "Did not die in vain".

I beg to differ.

I do not discuss politics where I worship, although I believe that some of my brothers and sisters who believe in "freedom" for that region of the world by sacrificing Americans lives need to think more critically.

Anyway that was just a part of our Sunday service, the sermon was the "real meat and potatoes" for me! :ok

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

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Gob
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Re: Reflections On September 11, 2001

Post by Gob »

I cannot see anything to disagree with there Dales. Read any report coming out of Iraq or Afghanistan today, and what do you find?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

dgs49
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Re: Reflections On September 11, 2001

Post by dgs49 »

We went into Iraq primarily to remove WMD's that didn't exist, then to depose Sadaam. Done.

We went into Afghanistan to destroy the Taliban and al kaeda. Done.

Yet for some reason we seem to think we are obliged to turn these shit-hole countries into something resembling civilized nations. Which ain't gonna happen.

Why ARE we there?

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Scooter
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Re: Reflections On September 11, 2001

Post by Scooter »

Because when you leave a power vacuum such as was created by those wars, something is going to fill it, and 9 times out of 10 they aren't going to be either nice people or your friends. You created a mess and now you're stuck with it for the next few decades in one form or another, so suck it up.

Perhaps if the years of cocaine and alcohol use hadn't addled his brain, the former Chucklehead-in-Chief might have heeded the dictum about getting involved in land wars in Asia. But no, he didn't like what the ruler said about him below the waist and so charged ahead anyway.
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

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Crackpot
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Re: Reflections On September 11, 2001

Post by Crackpot »

2001 or 2011? Sept 11 2011 was co-opted by the media using a tragic event in the past as masturbatory material for a solid week (I hope to God it's over) of self important hand-wringing.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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loCAtek
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Re: Reflections On September 11, 2001

Post by loCAtek »

dales wrote:
And what "freedoms" do the Afghan and Iraqi people enjoy since our invasion?

Freedom from tyranny?

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Reflections On September 11, 2001

Post by BoSoxGal »

Hasn't the Taliban come back to power in most of Afghanistan? Isn't Karzai's government considered one of the most corrupt in the world? Read anything about the state of things there now and it's hard to swallow that the Afghani people live free from tyranny.

Not much better can be said of Iraq.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

dgs49
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Re: Reflections On September 11, 2001

Post by dgs49 »

It would not be possible to have any serious discussion about the Crusades without mentioning the fact that they were undertaken by Christians against Moslems.

And yet, not a single sylable of the orgasm of coverage mentioned that this event was a mass murder undertaken by Islamists against what they perceived to be a Christian nation with disproportionate Jewish influence. The religious aspect was completely excised, as if it were not even worthy of a footnote. A person from mars might have concluded that the planes hit the towers because of a computer glitch.

With all due respect to the victims, the coverage of this anniversary was a national disgrace. It was the equivalent of a tribute to a Congressional Medal of Honor winner that didn't mention that he died in the act of trying to save others.

Not to mention the fact that the amount of coverage was rather bizarre in itself. George Will mentioned in his column yesterday that even the NYT did not run a feature story, and there were no national ceremonies, on the tenth anniversary of Pearl Harbor - an event with at least as much importance to Americans as 9/11/2001. The brouhaha probably had a lot to do with the neurotic fixation that New Yorkers have with drawing attention to themselves.

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Crackpot
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Re: Reflections On September 11, 2001

Post by Crackpot »

The Crusades were funded and enforced By a Religous organization for religious reasons against an entire religious group. (That was their cover story at least)

While it would be correct to say AQ is fighting a religious war (I don't think they'd deny it.) We are not. We are fighting a segment of a group not the entirity of that group as well as (somewhat slopily defined) political entities that provide support to that segment.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

rubato
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Re: Reflections On September 11, 2001

Post by rubato »

dgs49 wrote:It would not be possible to have any serious discussion about the Crusades without mentioning the fact that they were undertaken by Christians against Moslems.
... "
Not even close to the facts.

Every single crusade began with a slaughter of Jews in a European city. And the crusade against the Cathars, the first successful genocide in history, was Christians vs Christians. It also generated the expression "kill them all, god will know his own"..

The Crusades were religious fanatics with an excuse to slaughter, steal, plunder and rape.

yrs,
rubato

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loCAtek
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Re: Reflections On September 11, 2001

Post by loCAtek »

bigskygal wrote:Read anything about the state of things there now and it's hard to swallow that the Afghani people live free from tyranny.
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March 8, 2011
Petraeus Sees Military Progress in Afghanistan
By CARLOTTA GALL

KABUL, Afghanistan — Besides well-reported advances in southern provinces, American and NATO forces have also been able to halt or reverse Taliban gains around the capital, Kabul, and even in the north and west of the country, Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top American commander in Afghanistan, said Tuesday.

The general made his case for an improving overall picture in Afghanistan in an interview, offering a preview of what is likely to be his argument next week when he testifies before Congress for the first time since he took over command of coalition forces in Afghanistan eight months ago.

It will also be his first testimony since the influx of additional American and Afghan troops began to change the balance of the fighting in southern Afghanistan in late 2010.

Under General Petraeus, the tempo of operations has been stepped up enormously. American Special Operations forces and coalition commandos have mounted more than 1,600 missions in the 90 days before March 4 — an average of 18 a night — and the troops have captured and killed close to 3,000 insurgents, according to information provided by the general.

“The momentum of the Taliban has been halted in much of the country and reversed in some important areas,” he said.

“The Taliban have never been under the pressure that they were put under over the course of the last 8 to 10 months,” he added.

Other aspects of the war remain difficult, and progress is patchy and slow, General Petraeus conceded. There has been only modest momentum on efforts to persuade Taliban fighters to give up the fight and join a reintegration program, and a plan to train and install thousands of local police officers in rural communities to mobilize resistance to the Taliban has proved to be a painstaking business constrained by concerns that it will create militias loyal to warlords.

But security in and around Kabul has significantly improved, he said, thanks in part to specialized commando units of the Afghan Army, the police and the intelligence service, which operate in the greater Kabul area.

In 2009, Kabul was encircled by Taliban forces and there was talk of the capital’s falling to the insurgents, but now much of the greater Kabul area has been secured, he said.

President Hamid Karzai is to announce on the Afghan New Year, March 21, the beginning of the transition to Afghan control of some districts around the country, part of the plan to pass responsibility for security to the Afghan government by 2014.

The Taliban are expected to try to retake lost territory in coming months, and in particular to single out those districts in transition, the general said. But he said coalition forces would mount their own spring offensive to pre-empt Taliban efforts to retake lost territory.

“You cannot eliminate all the sensationalist attacks,” he said. “That is one of the objectives for our spring offensive — to solidify those gains and push them back further.”

Over the past four months, coalition forces have seen a fourfold increase in the number of weapons and explosives caches found and cleared, in large measure because the Taliban were forced out of territory they had held for up to five years, he said.

“The Taliban had to leave hastily, and the fighters and leaders were killed, captured or run off, and if they were run off they could not cart off all the I.E.D. and weapons and explosives that they had established over five years in some cases,” the general said, referring to improvised explosive devices.

Troops were finding more than 120 explosives and weapons caches a month recently compared with 40 a month a year ago, according to information from the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan provided by the general.

Destroying the infrastructure the Taliban had built up over the years, including field hospitals, weapons stores, bomb-making factories, safe houses and even detention facilities, would make it harder for them to regain the territory, he said. “Not having those will make their job more difficult this spring,” he said.

Many of the Taliban leaders and fighters had escaped to sanctuaries in Pakistan, he said, and coalition forces would focus in coming months on a strategy called “defense and depth,” blocking their return through strategic border regions that the insurgents traditionally used, namely in southern Helmand, eastern Kandahar and eastern Nangarhar Provinces, where Afghanistan borders Pakistan, and preventing them from regaining control of their old havens in Afghanistan.

As Afghanistan braces for an increase in fighting that traditionally occurs in the spring, however, tensions over civilian casualties have flared again, after an episode in eastern Afghanistan last week when American helicopter gunners killed nine boys collecting firewood.

A time lag between the sighting of a group of insurgents by ground forces and the relay of the information to a helicopter attack team led to the deaths, the general said, citing a preliminary inquiry. The attack team believed that the group of boys was the group of insurgents, he said.

“They thought they saw the same group but did not, and there was a gap in time before the final positive identification from the ground force until the handoff to the weapons team,” he said. “Beyond a human tragedy, it was a terrible and tragic mistake.”

That episode on March 1 came soon after a more controversial attack in the same region that the Afghan government said killed 65 civilians on Feb. 17. Mr. Karzai rejected General Petraeus’s earlier explanation that the victims were Taliban fighters, and he refused to accept his apology on Sunday for the deaths of the nine boys.

President Obama and Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates have also apologized to Mr. Karzai and the Afghan people for the deaths.

“This kind of event does clearly undermine the trust between the Afghan government and ISAF, and more important, between the Afghan people and ISAF,” General Petraeus conceded. The full investigation was nearly complete, he said, and a review had been ordered of the tactical directive given to troops. He declined comment on the Feb. 17 episode.

Despite the flare-up, relations with President Karzai were good, the general insisted. The two meet several times a week, including for one-on-one meetings. “We have open and forthright conversations with one another,” he said.

Over all, he noted, civilian casualties caused by Afghan and coalition forces had declined in 2010 by about 20 percent from the previous year, which he said was “impressive” given the deployment of 100,000 more Afghan and coalition troops and the increase in operations in 2010.

A United Nations report on civilian casualties in Afghanistan to be released Wednesday would show the majority — 75 percent — of civilian casualties in 2010 were caused by Taliban and insurgent attacks, he said.



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loCAtek
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Re: Reflections On September 11, 2001

Post by loCAtek »

What average folks did;
Wounded Warriors Weekend

Each summer, Rockaway, Queens, remembers 9/11, honoring veterans who served since the attack.

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