Occupy this

[Liberty1]

This pretty well sums up the business sentiment out here and this from a Dem

Steve Wynn, from Wynn Resorts 2Q11 conference call:


“I believe in Las Vegas, I think its best days are ahead of it, but I'm afraid to do anything in the current political environment in the United States.

You watch television and see what's going on on this this debt ceiling issue, and what I consider to be a total lack of leadership from the President, and nothing is going to get fixed until the President himself steps up and wrangles both parties in Congress. But everybody is so political, so focused on holding their job for the next year that the discussion in Washington is nauseating. And I'm saying it bluntly that this administration is the greatest wet blanket to business and progress and job creation in my lifetime. And I can prove it and I could spend the next three hours giving you examples of all of us in this marketplace that are frightened to death about all the new regulations, our health care costs escalate, regulations coming from left and right, a President that seems, you know - that keeps using that word redistribution. Well, my customers and the companies that provide the vitality for the hospitality and restaurant industry, in the United States of America, they're frightened of this administration.

And it makes you slow down and not invest your money. Everybody complains about how much money is on the side in America. You bet. And until we change the tempo and the conversation from Washington, it's not going to change. And those of us who have business opportunities and the capital to do it, are going to sit in fear of the President. And you know, a lot of people don't want to say that. They say "oh, God, don't be attacking Obama." Well, this is Obama's deal. And it's Obama that's responsible for this fear in America. The guy keeps making speeches about redistribution, and maybe we ought to do something to businesses that don't invest, they're holding too much money. You know, we haven't heard that kind of talk except from pure socialists. Everybody is afraid of the government. And there's no need - there's no need, you know, soft pedaling it. It's the truth. It is the truth. And that's true of Democratic businessmen and Republican businessmen, and I am a Democratic businessman and a - I support Harry Reid, I support Democrats and Republicans, and I'm telling you that the business community in this country is frightened to death of the weird political philosophy of the President of the United States. And until he's gone, everybody is going to be sitting on their thumbs….



You know, it's the double whammy. American companies that have ventured abroad to broaden their markets are bringing money - have reinvested much of that in America. And so the rhetoric about offshore capital, there would be a lot more of it brought back here if the government did intelligent and encouraging things to bring capital back. But this is a very business, job creating unfriendly administration and that's the plain truth of it. And so you know, you want to build condominiums? Why? You want to protect yourself in this environment. Everybody is in a defensive crouch, except for Jim Immelt (sic) [Jeff Immelt] (43:43), who is sort of a Judas goat….



Coming to the United States is tougher than going almost anywhere else in the world. Homeland Security has, you know, we seem to have been safe more or less but so much of it is excessive and irrational, you know, like patting down babies and old ladies and stuff like that. But it is very difficult - it's more difficult today to get to the United States for people who have been coming here for years, for decades. Our customers that are big businessmen that have been coming to America for 10, 15, 20 years, are asking us for help to relieve the bureaucratic congestion of government overregulation in this area. We've talked to Homeland Security. They're aware of the problem. So is Customs and Immigration and the State Department. And you know, when we talk to any given individual in those organizations, in those bureaucracies, they're very sympathetic. And they know the truth of the complaint. And they know the truth of the fact that these things are very often excessive and unnecessary. But yet there seems to be a tremendous amount of inertia to move government in America, whether it's the deficit management and coming to some kind of logical conclusion before August 2 or whatever it is, or whether it's getting visas. Everybody has a clear understanding of the problem, but when it comes to our government it seems to be getting more and more sclerotic, more and more inflexible. By its own device, it keeps growing and growing and getting more and more onerous, more and more sluggish in its responses to real problems, and sluggish in its ability to take advantage of real opportunity. And it's frustrating for me because I got a front row seat.…”

[dgs49]

It's not particularly difficult to understand. Americans have always understood that America's greatness was its ability to facilitate the "pursuit of happiness.' This generation seems to think that they are guaranteed...happiness. And when they don't get it, they get pissed.

In a thousand different formulations, you hear these fools say, "It's just not right that some people should be really, really rich while other people have nothing, next to nothing, or less than nothing."

They want "social justice," which I suppose is the state of affairs when, somehow, the wealth creators are forced to cough up a portion of what they have earned, and give it (with the government as a conduit) to those who have not earned anything, or not as much as they want. Where in the Constitution does it say that the Federal government is the machine by which wealth is distributed from Rich to Poor? Where in the Bible does it say that Caesar should be feeding the masses?

The fable of King Midas is not altogether fatuous. You can snatch the golden eggs up to a point, but beyond that point either the goose dies or it refuses to lay any more eggs. The truly wealthy can, if they choose to do so, diminish their taxable income to a mere trickle, saying, in effect, "Fuck you" to the Gub'mint and all its hangers-on.

Leave it to the rubato person to bring up Greece, where the entire country seeks to live off the Government's teats, nobody produces anything (tourism is not production), and they are apoplectic with rage that the government won't continue to feed them.

This is not a "movement," in the conventional sense. A movement implies coming constructive action of some sort.

This is a tantrum, shared by millions, which will result in nothing more than filling up a few dozen episodes of our sorry 24-hour news cycle, for lack of anything meaningful to report. More people care about Dancin' wit the Starz than any of their selfish, childish demonstrations.

Which is appropriate.

[liberty]

We need jobs, a lot jobs with people working and paying taxes. The federal government could stimulate the economy by putting money in the hands of the American people. That would stimulate the economy……..of China, unfortunately the Chinese don‘t taxes in the US.

Partially correct. the best option would be for the government to not confiscate it in the first place. But I have no hope of that happening.

So instead of the first "stimulous" being a slush fund for political payoffs like it was, can you imagine what would have happened if instead they suspended income tax for the citizens until that same amount would have been reached.

That is true; however’ I was being sarcastic and syndical. True money in the hands of the people would stimulate the economy, but not our economy. These days there is a express lane for money to leave the country as fast as possible.

I got a great idea what we need is for doctor, lawyers, accountants and other needed professionals to be able to work directly from the third world by way of computer link. That would help things greatly; it would make those services much cheaper..

[dales]

You're hopeless, lib

Hopelessly correct. I'm not sure what you're having a hard time understanding.

Even a broken clock is right, twice a day.

[Grim Reaper]

And yes I am paying attention.........to what business have been saying for the last 2 years. They feel under attack from BO and are unwilling to put their capital at risk until a better business environment exists, in DC.

At what risk? There is no real "risk" anymore. They can just cry to Congress for a bail out. And then still give executives huge bonuses for being failures.

They didn't want to spend money when President Bush was still in charge, trying to blame it on President Obama is just pure garbage.

Businesses got a tax holiday in 2004, and you know what happened? They laid off tens of thousands of American workers and pocketed the money. They don't give two shits about risk. It's just a useful buzzword used to build talking points. They only care about making more money.

[dales]

Since dgs49 threw the Bible into the mix...

Where in the Bible does it say that Caesar should be feeding the masses?

http://www.acts17-11.com/money.html

Mark 10:21-27,31 (Jer) Jesus looked steadily at him and loved him, and he said, "There is one thing you lack. Go and sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." But his face fell at these words and he went away sad, for he was a man of great wealth. Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!" The disciples were astounded by these words, but Jesus insisted, "My children," he said to them, "how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." They were more astonished than ever. "In that case," they said to one another, "who can be saved?" Jesus gazed at them. "For men," he said, "it is impossible, but not for God: because everything is possible for God... Many who are first will be last, and the last first."


Is it likely, with all of his contacts and experience, that this man would have remained poor for long? And yet he was unwilling to obey Christ with all these advantages, even temporarily.

Loosening Your Grip

[Grim Reaper]

In a thousand different formulations, you hear these fools say, "It's just not right that some people should be really, really rich while other people have nothing, next to nothing, or less than nothing."

Here's another way of looking at it:

Why should the rich be able to manipulate the system so that they can become richer while forcing the poor to become poorer? The rich get richer with less effort and less risk while the poor get poorer with more effort and more risk.

[The Hen]

The rich get richer
The poor get the picture
The bombs never hit you when you're down so low

Some got pollution
Some revolution
There must be some solution but I just don't know

The bosses want decisions
The workers need ambitions
There won't be no collisions whey they move so slow

Nothing ever happens
Nothing ever matters
No one ever tells me so what am I to know

You wouldn't read about it
Read about it
Just another incredible scene
There's no doubt about it
[ Lyrics from: http://www.lyricsty.com/midnight-oil-re ... yrics.html ]
Hammer and sickle
The news is at a trickle
The commisars are fickle but the stockpile grows

Bombers keeping coming
Engines softly humming
The stars and stripes are running for their own big show

Another little flare up
Storm brewed in a tea cup
Imagine any mix up and the lot would go

Nothing ever happens
Nothing ever matters
No one ever tells me so what I am to know

You wouldn't read about it
Read about it
One unjust, ridiculous steal
Ain't no doubt about it
You wouldn't read about it
Read about it
Just another particular deal
There's no doubt about it

[rubato]

"....

Leave it to the rubato person to bring up Greece, where the entire country seeks to live off the Government's teats, nobody produces anything (tourism is not production), and they are apoplectic with rage that the government won't continue to feed them.

... "

Leave it to a jackass like you to lie about what others have said.



yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

[dgs49]

Dear Grim Reaper:

The problem with your question is that you accept the underlying premise that "The Rich" describes a fixed population or classification. Historically, in this country, that is largely untrue.

Fortunes are made and lost all the time. People who were born poor (especially immigrants) start businesses or work their way through medical school (or whatever) and MAKE THEMSELVES "rich." People who are wealthy are ruined and fall back into the middle class, where they have to work hard for what they need.

There is no doubt that those who are born to wealthy families have a leg up on their middle-class peers, but fretting about that is a pointless exercise, benefitting no one. Consider that Teddy Roosevelt felt the inheritance tax should be 100%.

The discussion is (or should be) about government policies. It is true enough that the Government made it possible in recent years for scoundrels in banking and related industries to figuratively get away with murder, but to use that as an excuse to confiscate large portions of the earnings of all high income taxpayers is counterproductive and punitive of success.

Right now, the government ought to be focused on maximizing opportunities for entrepreneurial success, and minimizing the burden of government regulations on the private sector. The Democrats have diverted the public's attention to a campaign of envy and fearmongering, promoting the phony idea that the country's budget problems can be solved by increasing taxes on high earners (not the same as The Rich). Spending money on government jobs (the only type of jobs that Democrat policies can promote) only creates further financial burdens in the future, and does little to grow the economy.

[dgs49]

Not original thoughts:

(1) Dem Politicians seem to be trying to adopt this "thing" as their own, but if I remember correctly, it was mainly the Democrat administration that was pushing the bailout of Wall Street, over the protests of the nation's conservatives. In fact, Barry's administration has much closer ties to Wall Street than Bush43 ever did, both personnel-wise and campaign contribution-wise.

(2) I don't see many African-Americans out there (except for pan handlers). Does that mean that these protesters are racist? That's the "argument" that is used against the Tea Party rallies.

(3) If these people can't get jobs and have burdensome student loans, could it be because they studied subjects with little prospect of fostering lucrative employment? Are they protesting their own stupidity? Or asking Government to relieve them of the burden of their poor decisionmaking?

Dear Dales:
There is no question that the NT discourages the pursuit of personal wealth (as an obsession) and encourages Christians to give to the poor. Hear, hear.

But that's hardly the same as supporting government policies that confiscate wealth and distributes it to those who may or may not need it. The early Christians seemed to feel that a form of closed-community socialism was the best way to follow the teachings of Christ, but does it follow that the government-imposed socialism is what Christians should promote?

I doubt it. The Christian message is PERSONAL not civil.

[rubato]

What these two charts are saying is that unemployment is at a crisis. The last time we had an economic crises this bad we dug out of it by deficit spending (and built the hydroelectric dams we needed to win WWII). We need to do the same again.






What the first chart is also saying is that median income went down during all of the BushCo calamity proving that the Republican economic theories are false; borrowing $270 Billion per year to give $200 Billion/yr to the rich really doesn't work. The tax code during the Clinton years produced prosperity for all.

yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

"...
Dear Dales:
There is no question that the NT discourages the pursuit of personal wealth (as an obsession) and encourages Christians to give to the poor. Hear, hear.

But that's hardly the same as supporting government policies that confiscate wealth and distributes it to those who may or may not need it. The early Christians seemed to feel that a form of closed-community socialism was the best way to follow the teachings of Christ, but does it follow that the government-imposed socialism is what Christians should promote?

I doubt it. The Christian message is PERSONAL not civil.

The christian church perpetuated poverty and misery for 2,000 years with such bullshit excuses while secular liberal government eliminated it.

yrs,
rubato

[Grim Reaper]

Fortunes are made and lost all the time. People who were born poor (especially immigrants) start businesses or work their way through medical school (or whatever) and MAKE THEMSELVES "rich." People who are wealthy are ruined and fall back into the middle class, where they have to work hard for what they need.

The 1% are almost completely immune to losing their fortunes. The 99% have huge hurdles that have been set up by the 1% to perpetuate their own wealth.

You're trying to divide the 99% into separate categories just to protect the 1%.

The discussion is (or should be) about government policies. It is true enough that the Government made it possible in recent years for scoundrels in banking and related industries to figuratively get away with murder, but to use that as an excuse to confiscate large portions of the earnings of all high income taxpayers is counterproductive and punitive of success.

You have missed the point by such a massive margin that I question your ability to understand the English language.

Right now, the government ought to be focused on maximizing opportunities for entrepreneurial success, and minimizing the burden of government regulations on the private sector. The Democrats have diverted the public's attention to a campaign of envy and fearmongering, promoting the phony idea that the country's budget problems can be solved by increasing taxes on high earners (not the same as The Rich). Spending money on government jobs (the only type of jobs that Democrat policies can promote) only creates further financial burdens in the future, and does little to grow the economy.

The burden on the private sector is meaningless when the private sector has been posting record profits for years now. They're not going to magically start hiring people with fewer regulations. They're just going to pocket the money. It's what they've done every time we've tried being nice to them.

(1) Dem Politicians seem to be trying to adopt this "thing" as their own, but if I remember correctly, it was mainly the Democrat administration that was pushing the bailout of Wall Street, over the protests of the nation's conservatives. In fact, Barry's administration has much closer ties to Wall Street than Bush43 ever did, both personnel-wise and campaign contribution-wise.

President Bush initiated the bailout. Try again.

(2) I don't see many African-Americans out there (except for pan handlers). Does that mean that these protesters are racist? That's the "argument" that is used against the Tea Party rallies.

And this is just pure stupid racism. It's cute how you define the African-Americans who are present as "pan handlers" so you can then proceed to act like the movement is racist.

(3) If these people can't get jobs and have burdensome student loans, could it be because they studied subjects with little prospect of fostering lucrative employment? Are they protesting their own stupidity? Or asking Government to relieve them of the burden of their poor decisionmaking?

Right. Because that's the only thing they're complaining about and they all happened to choose poorly. Or, and this is infinitely more likely, you're a racist troll who just wants to stir shit.

[Liberty1]

I think it's funny anyway, but all of the Ar che' comics are

[Liberty1]

[Liberty1]

Now for some real young people

[quaddriver]

the mother of all non-sequitors:

They're not going to magically start hiring people with fewer regulations. {therefore more regulation is the right way to go}

Is it possible to have someone sent to Gitmo for catastrophically not paying attention in school? (if in fact any school was ever attended)

[Lord Jim]

What do the protesters taking part in the demonstrations that have swept the US in recent days want?

The BBC profiles six of the very different characters who attended one of the rallies in Cleveland in the US state of Ohio.
Jacob Wagner, 25, law and business student

My family has gone through a lot this past decade. I've seen the effects of the corporate domination of government institutions at the expense of the working classes. Enough is enough.

We really need to even the economic playing field of elections. Right now, one vote is equal to another only in a tally. If you donate $1,000 to a politician's campaign and I donate a dollar, he's not going to listen to me, he's going to listen to you.

My parents and my brother all have a lot of health problems. They lost their health insurance because my dad lost his job. My family sometimes struggles to eat, pay the bills, pay the mortgage.

I know that other people are going through the same times. I know that a lot of people... think America is number one and it can't get any better than this. It can. Our public transportation is garbage. We're not moving towards clean energy - they're keeping us dependent on oil. That's why I want to help people become aware. I want to help people wake up and not be afraid to speak out against something that's wrong.

Greg Coleridge, 52

For a very long time I have been concerned about the growing political and constitutional rights of business corporations to not only influence and shape our economic policies but to govern, to be involved in decisions that affect our communities, and our families, and our environment.

It seems like that among the subset of business corporations that are the most powerful are the financial - the banks. They invest in political candidates. Look at what happened following the economic implosion of 2008: they got off scot-free. Still nobody's been indicted, and they got bailed out. The quote-unquote reforms that were passed were anaemic at best. This subset of corporations are so powerful that trying to work within the system is basically fruitless. You have to do an end-run and build a social movement, a political movement, a grassroots movement.

Many people of many stripes and many ages have increasingly come to believe that [Democrats or Republicans], it doesn't make too much difference. Changing parties, changing faces may not be sufficient. We need to change some basic defining structures. The voices of the people without money are not being heard.

Michelle Mahon, 40, union nurse

I've been a nurse for over 20 years - internal medicine is my speciality. We are seeing patients forgoing needed medical care, emergency room visits are up since this foreclosure crisis has begun, suicides attempts are increased. Real problems: stress, hypertension, blood pressure increases. Real problems, real people.

We're the largest professional association and union of registered nurses in the US, representing about 170,000 nurses. We are out here, we are in New York, we are in Boston, we are in San Francisco, we have been protesting Wall Street. It's no longer about pay, it's no longer about jobs, it's about everything. We heard their [Occupy Wall Street protesters'] message, and we were like 'wow, they heard our message'. It's the same. If you look at the root cause of a lot of the different problems in our country, we really are all saying the same thing. It's time to blame Wall Street and make them pay their fair share. It's time.

Rev Meredith White-Zeager, 38, Presbyterian minister

I'm a Christian and Jesus Christ, one of the things they said about him right when he was born was he will lift up the poor and tear the wealthy down from their thrones. Throughout the fullness of Judaeo-Christian history, God has been on the side of the poor and the needy. And in this country, where the comparison between a corporate exec's wage and worker's wage is - I think I just read - 425 to one, it seems like we've gotten out of balance.

The Bible has over 300 mentions of justice for people in poverty, for people struggling, and I think that the church needs to be down here making a statement that we support not only the people but the issues of economic justice. The Old Testament goes on and on about no usury and no exorbitant fees. [Paraphrasing Amos 2:6-8:] "The rich people, they sell the righteous for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals. In the house of their god they drink wine bought with fines they imposed", which seems to sum up why we're all here.

If the government or politicians would hear that there's a lot of us out here that are really the impinged and hurt, it might make a difference.

Justin Bilyj, 29, insurance broker, bartender and supporter of Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul

I just want to come here and make sure I can educate my fellow Americans of some of the root causes of the greater symptoms like the corruption. We don't have a free currency system - it's monopolised by the Federal Reserve system and it's unelected bankers that basically give all of our money to their buddies, inflate interest rates.

I'm here to speak my voice and remind them who's going to champion the constitution when it comes to federal election time - Ron Paul.

We're drawing awareness. I've talked to a lot of people who have opposing viewpoints. We're here because we're angry and we want the world to know this will not stand anymore. And whether we do it through a federal mandate or federal legislation or state legislation, we're going to do something about it.

Michael Parish, 52, disabled and retired Cleveland firefighter

The middle class of this country was built off of what has been demonised now as a 'public employee'. If it was not for public employees in those positions - teachers, firefighters, police officers, EMS workers - we would be in a Third-World country.

I fought fires, saved lives, protected property for 22 years. I had multiple injuries.

We don't ask for anything other than our fair share and our fair dues, and to be addressed in this manner from our so-called elected officials is a slap in the face.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15223695

Well, I confess that I haven't been following the development of this in Cleveland...

Most of what I've seen comes from New York, San Francisco or DC...

But I have to say there's something about those comments that just don't ring true...

I will assume for the sake of argument that the BBC reporter who compiled this actually got those comments...

But I have to wonder how he acquired them...

Those are clearly not "microphone- and-camera- in- the- face- man- in- the- street" comments...

They're too articulate, lengthy, and well thought out to be that sort of thing...

When someone is asked "why are you out here?" they don't spontaneously respond with those sort of multi-paragraph polemics...

Nobody does that...

So how did he get those responses?

Did he go to the demonstration and ask a bunch of people to write out their motivations in essay form? And then publish the ones that were the best well written? That's certainly what it looks like...

Did he then cherry pick those that would seem to give a "broad" view of the folks there, rather than a representative sampling?

As I've said, there are some legitimate grievances here...

But that article just doesn't smell right...