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Grim Reaper
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Grim Reaper »

liberty1 wrote:How can you not look at the majority of the people in pictures at OWS and not laugh.

And they wonder why they can't get a job, puhleese.
And you continue to show your sheer unadulterated ignorance about this subject.

It's rather difficult to get a job when the "job creators" have very little incentive to hire anyone, regardless of how silly they may or may not look.

And a lot of the people in the movement have jobs, they're arguing about the inequality in payment that has increased over the years. CEOs get paid fortunes for fucking up while the little people struggle just to get by.

But keep posting stupid comics. Whatever helps you cope with this situation since thinking rationally about it is out of the question.

Liberty1
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Liberty1 »

http://www.nber.org/papers/w15351
http://www.minneapolisfed.org/publicati ... fm?id=4049
http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/1353
http://harrisschool.uchicago.edu/facult ... ity60s.pdf

And here's one from BO's deputy director of Obama’s National Economic Council

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2006/09/j ... an_on.html




Sorry, the story just doesn’t hold together. According to left-wing think tanks, columnist and bloggers—and, of course, the Occupy Wall Street radicals—the top 1 percent have been exploiting the 99 percent for decades. The rich have been getting richer at the expense of the middle class and poor.

Really? Just think for a second: If inequality had really exploded during the past 30 to 40 years, why did American politics simultaneously move rightward toward a greater embrace of free-market capitalism? Shouldn’t just the opposite have happened as beleaguered workers united and demanded a vastly expanded social safety net and sharply higher taxes on the rich? What happened to presidents Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, and Kerry? Even Barack Obama ran for president as a market friendly, third-way technocrat.

Nope, the story doesn’t hold together because the financial facts don’t support it. And here’s why:

1. In a 2009 paper, Northwestern University economist Robert Gordon found the supposed sharp rise in American inequality to be “exaggerated both in magnitude and timing.” Here is the conundrum: Family income is supposed to rise right along with productivity. But median real household income—as reported by the Census Bureau—grew just 0.49 percent per year between 1979 and 2007 even as worker productivity grew four times faster at 1.95 percent per year. The wide gap between the two measures, if accurate, would suggest wealthy households rather than middle-class families grabbed most of the income gains from faster productivity.

But Gordon explained that this “compares apples with oranges, and then oranges with bananas.” When various statistical quirks are harmonized between the two economic measures, Gordon found middle-class income growth to be much faster and the “conceptually consistent gap between income and productivity growth is only 0.16 percent per year.” That’s barely one‐tenth of the original gap of 1.46 percent. In other words, income gains were shared fairly equally.

2. A pair of studies from 2007 and 2008 conducted by the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis supports Gordon. Researchers examined why the Census Bureau reported median household income stagnated from 1976 to 2006, growing by only 18 percent. In contrast, data from the Bureau of Economic Analysis showed income per person was up 80 percent. Like Gordon, they found apples-to-oranges issues such as different ways of measuring prices and household size. But in the end, they concluded that “after adjusting the Census data for these three issues, inflation-adjusted median household income for most household types is seen to have increased by 44 percent to 62 percent from 1976 to 2006.” In addition, research shows that median hourly wages (including fringe benefits) rose by 28 percent from 1975 to 2005.

3. A 2008 paper by Christian Broda and John Romalis from the University of Chicago documents how traditional measures of inequality ignore how inflation affects the rich and poor differently: “Inflation of the richest 10 percent of American households has been 6 percentage points higher than that of the poorest 10 percent over the period 1994–2005. This means that real inequality in America, if you measure it correctly, has been roughly unchanged.” And why is that? China and Wal-Mart. Lower-income families spend a larger share of income than wealthier families on goods whose prices are more directly affected by trade. Higher income folks, by contrast, spend more on services which are less subject to foreign competition.

4. A 2010 study by the University of Chicago’s Bruce Meyer and Notre Dame’s James Sullivan notes that official income inequality statistics indicate a sharp rise in inequality over the past four decades: “The ratio of the 90th to the 10th percentile of income, for example, grew by 23 percent between 1970 and 2008.” But Meyer and Sullivan point out that income statistics miss a lot, such as the value of government programs and the impact of taxes. The latter, especially, is a biggie. The researchers find that “accounting for taxes considerably reduces the rise in income inequality” over the past 45 years. In addition, “consumption inequality is less pronounced than income inequality.”

5. Set all the numbers aside for a moment. If you’ve lived through the past four decades, does it really seem like America is no better off today? It doesn’t to Jason Furman, the deputy director of Obama’s National Economic Council. Here is Furman back in 2006: “Remember when even upper-middle class families worried about staying on a long distance call for too long? When flying was an expensive luxury? When only a minority of the population had central air conditioning, dishwashers, and color televisions? When no one had DVD players, iPods, or digital cameras? And when most Americans owned a car that broke down frequently, guzzled fuel, spewed foul smelling pollution, and didn’t have any of the now virtually standard items like air conditioning or tape/CD players?”

No doubt the past few years have been terrible. But the past few decades have been pretty good—for everybody.
I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain

Grim Reaper
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Grim Reaper »

Shouldn’t just the opposite have happened as beleaguered workers united and demanded a vastly expanded social safety net and sharply higher taxes on the rich?
You mean just like they're doing right now?

Liberty1
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Liberty1 »

Told you guys they should move from WS to DC.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-1 ... alley.html
Federal employees whose compensation averages more than $126,000

typical household in the Washington metro area earning $84,523 last year. The national median income for 2010 was $50,046.

The figures demonstrate how the nation’s political and financial classes are prospering as the economy struggles with unemployment above 9 percent and thousands of Americans protest in the streets against income disparity, said Kevin Zeese, director of Prosperity Agenda, a Baltimore-based advocacy group trying to narrow the divide between rich and poor.

“There’s a gap that’s isolating Washington from the reality of the rest of the country,” Zeese said. “They just get more and more out of touch.”

I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain

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dales
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Re: Occupy this

Post by dales »

liberty1 wrote:I will admit to ignorance on much of the details of all this stuff, however......

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

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dales
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Re: Occupy this

Post by dales »

More l "lazy slackers" in Boston.

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/20/141509639 ... -in-boston
The U.S. hasn't had unemployment this high for this long since the Great Depression. That's weighing heavily on a lot of Americans and seems to be a key part of the frustration and anger that's being directed at Wall Street and the big banks. For many people, it's not so much about high finance as it is about a weekly paycheck.

"I'm unemployed, and I'm down here because I'm unemployed," says Bob Norkus, a protester in downtown Boston.

I know thousands of guys like me who just want to go to work and be able to pay their mortgage before Bank of America forecloses on them.

Walking around, it doesn't take long to figure out that many people here have the same problem.

"Right now I'm unemployed," says Fernando Olivera. "I was laid off because of education cuts."

"The construction industry has been stagnant, you know, over the past four or five years," says Jason Chambers. "We've been underemployed or unemployed. And right now I'm unemployed — a full-time occupier."

Lisa Doherty stands on the edge of the road holding a sign up to oncoming traffic that says, "People Before Profits."

Doherty, who lost her job as a loan processor, says she's frustrated. She says she feels like the financial system is somehow stacked against her, even though she used to work in the mortgage business.

"I can't get a job at a bank as a mortgage loan processor, because I have bad credit," she says, "and I have bad credit because I don't have a job. ... It's a Catch-22."

Doherty says she doesn't know what to do. She's living with family because she can't afford her own place. She's been turned down for retail jobs — everything she applies for.

"Things need to change," she says. "You know, I just want a better world."

Lisa Doherty lost her job in the mortgage business three years ago and says she can't find another job, in part because banks and credit unions aren't hiring people with bad credit scores.

Doherty says she's been looking for a job for three years.

"I have five kids," she says. "They're all struggling, too. I don't want my kids to struggle. I don't want my grandchildren to struggle. So that's why I'm out here."

<snip>
liberty1 wrote:
How can you not look at the majority of the people in pictures at OWS and not laugh.

And they wonder why they can't get a job, puhleese.
Image

I find nothing humorous in this poor woman's plight.

Perhaps becuase I am able to exhibit a sense empathy more than some.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

Liberty1
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Liberty1 »

I see nothing humorous, I see a ptiful woman who is totally ignorant on how business works and is embarrasing herself. Her sign should read.

No Profits = No Jobs
I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain

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dales
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Re: Occupy this

Post by dales »

I hope you never find yourself out of work, lib.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

Liberty1
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Liberty1 »

If I do, my knowledge of the rules of business will, a) help me find another job, b) create my own.

Bueinesses exist to make money, making money is profit. Profit is good, not bad. Business is succesful, wants to make more money, hires more people to increase production ------> more profits.


:loon
I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain

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dales
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Re: Occupy this

Post by dales »

May all your dreams come true, lib.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

Liberty1
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Liberty1 »

Thanks, I tried to simplify it enough for you.



Don't be a victim
I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain

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Scooter
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Scooter »

The trick would be understanding the difference between simplified and simplistic.
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

Liberty1
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Liberty1 »

The trick would be understanding the difference between simplified and simplistic.
Capitalism is simple.
I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain

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Scooter
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Scooter »

Speaking of simplistic....
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

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Crackpot
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Crackpot »

I thought the term for people like him was "simple"
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Gob
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Gob »

Capitalism at work;
Citigroup is paying $285m (£180m) to settle civil fraud charges from the Securities and Exchange Commission.

The SEC said that Citigroup misled investors when it invited them to invest in a product based on US mortgage debt.

It said that Citigroup did not inform investors that it was betting on the value of the investment falling or that it had chosen the assets itself.


Citigroup settled without admitting or denying the charges


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15375111
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Sue U
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Sue U »

As I said earlier in this thread:
Sue U wrote: In fact, the entire CDO/CDS market was probably the biggeest fraud ever perpetrated by the finance industry; look up "synthetic CDO" sometime -- the entire concept was essentially to sell a product that didn't exist in a transaction that was designed to fail.
But hey, free market! Capitalism is inherently good! It's simple!
GAH!

Liberty1
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Liberty1 »

But hey, free market! Capitalism is inherently good! It's simple!
It is simple. As in all things there are bad characters. Sue, I assume you make yourliving off of them. Laws do exis for a reason.

Profits are not bad.
I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain

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Sue U
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Sue U »

No one has said profits are bad. That is not even remotely the issue.

ETA:

And anyone who thinks capitalism -- or any functional economic system -- is "simple" never took Econ 101.
GAH!

Liberty1
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Re: Occupy this

Post by Liberty1 »

No one has said profits are bad
People in the OWS movement have. That picture above implies that, but in fact making profits is putting people first.
And anyone who thinks capitalism -- or any functional economic system -- is "simple" never took Econ 101
I never took Econ 101, but I did take Engineering Economics and have proposed,designed, executed and managed complex space electronics programs for 28 years, for both commercial companies and governmental institutions (NASA, USAF, USN). I have managed FFP, CPFF and CPAF contracts including EVMS management systems. So yes I do know a few things about business economics. But the basics are simple.
I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain

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