Nominations please, for the all asshole scale

[Andrew D]

Is that thestoat-speak for "I completely fucked this up"?

Or were you trying to say something coherent?

I would unhesitatingly admit that I was wrong, if, in fact, I were wrong.

But I am not.

And we both know it.

[thestoat]

Ah, brilliant, the "nah nah I can't hear you" approach.

A dead language is one which no one any longer learns as a first language. You are, of course, free to disagree.

I do disagree. And unlike you, I do so on actually knowing people with several native languages, and knowing people who speak Cornish and would take issue with your assertion it is dead. You can ignore these facts all you like - changes nothing.

[Sean]

Anyroad, back on topic...

I would like to nominate Andrew.

[Andrew D]

If you want to keep inventing your own language, thestoat, I obviously cannot stop you from doing so.

Just at least have the honesty, please, not to claim that your versions of what words mean are somehow the same as what words mean in English.

dead language
n.
A language, such as Latin, that is no longer learned as a native language by a speech community.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Whatever your problem is with that well-accepted definition, you should consider taking it up with Houghton Mifflin.

You might get somewhere.

Over the weekend, I persuaded the Oxford University Press that one of its definitions needed substantive changing.

So maybe Houghton Mifflin will agree with you.

But I'm not betting on it.

[BoSoxGal]

Anyroad, back on topic...

I would like to nominate Andrew.

I second the nomination!

[thestoat]

Notice "native". That is the language which one is born into. It is not a language which one later learns.

Exactly - Cornish is such a language. Plenty of homes speak Cornish - or do you somehow believe that those homes are sterile, or if not they switch to English the moment they have a child?

Whatever your problem is with that well-accepted definition, you should consider taking it up with Houghton Mifflin.

Brilliant - full circle. And you have clearly learned nothing along the way. Disregard the wiki if you wish. Ignore the many people who actually know what they are talking about and *live there*. By all means hide behind your breath taking arrogance. You clearly believe you know better about the language than people who daily use it and indeed who live it. You must feel so humbled being you.

[Gob]

Movyans Skolyow Meythrin Cornish language pre-school.

Dynargh dhe Agan Tavas
Welcome to Agan Tavas - Our Language

Agan Tavas was reformed in 1990 to support the Unified Cornish spelling, first introduced in 1929, which took the Cornish Language Revival to a new level of activity.

Our aim now is to continue supporting Unified Cornish but also to support all activity in the language which is firmly based on how Cornish was historically written and constructed.

Agan Tavas opposes excessive invention in Revived Cornish whether this takes the form of spelling systems, grammatical construction or over-strenuous efforts to devise new words for modern concepts. We believe that if Cornish today is to achieve respect within the academic community, the greatest care must be taken to ensure that the language is as historically accurate as possible.

In order to achieve this aim, Agan Tavas will campaign for, support and promote careful, evidence-based, scholarly study of the historical corpus and promote classes, learning materials and other activities making use of such study. We will also campaign for the accurate representation of Cornish in public life.

Y fu Agan Tavas dasformyes y’n vledhen 1990 rag scodhya lytherenyeth Kernewek Unyes, furf a’n tavas ervyrys y’n kensa prys y’n vledhen 1929, hag a dhros an Dasserghyans Kernewek dhe ughelder noweth a vewder.

Yth yu whath agan towl ny hedhyu scodhya Kernewek Unyes, warbarth gans pup eghen a Gernewek a vo fundys fast war spellyans ha war dhrehevyans an tavas ystorek.

Yma Agan Tavas ow sconya re a dhesmygyans noweth y’n Kernewek Dasvewys, be va y’n lytherenyeth, yn furvyow gramasek bo yn devysyans dres musur a eryow rak taclow ha tybyansow a’gan dedhyow ny. Mars on ny whensys dhe weles an tavas degemerys hag enorys yn bys an scoloryon, res yw kemeres wyth may fo natur an Kernewek dasvewys mar ogas del yll bos dhe’n tavas tythyak.

Rak collenwel an towl ma Agan Tavas a wra caskergh rak, scodhya hag avonsya studhyans lettrys skentyl, grondys war an dustuny a’n scryvow ystorek, hag yn un wul defnyth a’n studhyans na an gowethas a wra avonsya classys, dafar desky ha gwryans aral. Ny a vyn gul caskergh kefrys rak dysquedhyans kewar a’n tavas Kernewek yn bewnans an bobel.

http://www.agantavas.com/

The following is a list of Cornish classes we know to be running in the 2010/2011 academic year. Please contact the teachers themselves for further information about any of the classes.

If you cannot find a class near you, you could either look into the distance learning options available, which are also listed, or contact the Cornish Language Partnership office to register your interest in a class being started near you. If we receive enough requests for a certain area then we will look into getting a class started up there. E-mail us at cornishlanguage@cornwall.gov.uk or phone us on 01872 323497.

East Cornwall,

Mid Cornwall,

West Cornwall,

Outside Cornwall,

Distance Learning,

Conversation Groups

East Cornwall

Bodmin Mondays, 19.00-21.00, The Garland Ox, suitable for all levels, contact Jerry Jefferies on 01726 824784 or jerry@keskewsel.com

Callington Wednesdays, 19.15-21.15, Guild Room, Callington Methodist Church, suitable for all levels, contact Maureen Pierce on 01579 382511 or mpiercekernow@btinternet.com

Camelford Thursdays or Fridays TBC, 19.00-21.00, above Keskewsel shop, suitable for beginners, contact Jerry Jefferies on 01726 824784 or jerry@keskewsel.com

Launceston Thursdays, 19.30-21.30, Central Methodist Church, suitable for all levels, contact Tim Hambly on 01566 773716 or tchambly@btinternet.com or Mike Millard on 01566 774298

Polperro Tuesdays, 10.30-12.30, private house, suitable for intermediate students, contact Ken George on 01503 250658 or ken.george@hotmail.co.uk

Saltash Tuesdays, 19.00-21.00, Saltash College, suitable for all levels, contact Maureen Pierce on 01579 382511 or mpiercekernow@btinternet.com

Wadebridge Tuesdays, 19.00-21.00, Halfway House Inn, St Jidgey, suitable for all levels, contact Jerry Jefferies on 01726 824784 or jerry@keskewsel.com

Mid Cornwall

Falmouth Mondays, 19.00-21.00, Dracaena Centre, suitable for all levels, contact Esme Tackley on 01326 315994 or ankylghkernewek@hotmail.co.uk

Falmouth Tuesdays 19.00-20.00, tutor's house, suitable for beginners to intermediate students, contact Polin Prys at rosmodres@hotmail.com

Lostwithiel Mondays, 19.00-21.00, Lostwithiel Community Centre, suitable for beginners and intermediate students, contact Jan Edmondson on 01503 220445 or anjanva@phonecoop.coop

Nanpean Wednesdays, 19.00-21.00, Nanpean CP School, suitable for all levels, contact Jerry Jefferies on 01726 824784 or jerry@keskewsel.com

Newquay Wednesdays, 19.00-21.00, The Bishops C of E School, suitable for beginners, tutor Liz Carne, contact Liz Carne on 01637 876386 or e.carne@tiscali.co.uk

Truro Tuesdays, 19.00-21.00, County Hall, suitable for beginners and intermediate students, contact Janice Lobb on 01872 278501 or janicelobb@gmail.com

Truro Tuesdays, 19.15-21.00, private house, suitable for beginners, contact Conan Jenkin on 01872 261263 or conanjenkin@hotmail.com

Truro Wednesdays, 14.00-15.00, Truro College, suitable for beginners, contact Conan Jenkin on 01872 261263 or conanjenkin@hotmail.com

West Cornwall

Camborne Mondays, 19.00-20.30, private house, suitable for beginners, contact Matthew Clarke on 01209 610890 or pennlorwydh@hotmail.com

Camborne Thursdays, 19.00-20.30, Centenary Centre, suitable for all levels, contact Ray Chubb on 01209 842394 or ray@spyrys.org

Hayle Mondays, 19.30-21.00, public venue TBC, suitable for beginners, contact Trevor Smitheram on 01326 221867 or trevor.smitheram@btopenworld.com

Heamoor Wednesdays, 19.00-21.00, St Thomas' Church Hall, suitable for all levels, contact Koreen Twydell on 01736 758344 or at koreen@freshapproachaccountancy.co.uk

Helston Tuesdays, 19.30-21.00, the Blue Anchor, suitable for beginners, contact Penny Norman on 01736 762192 or Pen@normansound.waitrose.com

Marazion Thursdays, 19.30-21.00, Marazion Community Centre, suitable for beginners, contact Loveday Jenkin on 01209 831517 or Sarah Tresidder at sarahtres@tiscali.co.uk

Mawgan Tuesdays, 19.30-21.00, private house, suitable for beginners, contact Trevor Smitheram on 01326 221867 or trevor.smitheram@btopenworld.com

Mullion Mondays, 19.30-21.00, Redannack Community Room, suitable for all levels, contact Dick Ormond on 01326 240168 or susan.ormond@btinternet.com

Newlyn Mondays, 18.30-19.30, Newlyn Trinity Centre, suitable for advanced students, contact Andrew Climo at andrew@communityleaders.org.uk

Newlyn Mondays, 19.45-21.00, Trinity Centre, suitable for beginners, contact Andrew Climo at andrew@communityleaders.org.uk

Pool Saturdays, 10.30-12.30, Cornwall College, suitable for families with young children, contact Conan Jenkin on 01872 261263 or conanjenkin@hotmail.com

Redruth Wednesdays, 17.00-19.00, Melting Pot, Krowji, suitable for families, contact Ben Read on 07915 252757 or ben@themeltingpotcafe.co.uk

Redruth Wednesdays, 10.00-12.00, private house, suitable for beginners, contact Audrey Metcalfe on 01209 313847 or audreymetcalfe@hotmail.co.uk

St Ives Tuesdays, 18.00-19.30, Fishermen's Lodge, suitable for 2nd grade students, contact Mick Paynter on 01736 795874 or e-mail mickpaynter@paynter6862.fsnet.co.uk

St Ives Tuesdays, 19.30-21.00, Fishermen's Lodge, suitable for 3rd grade students, contact Mick Paynter on 01736 795874 or e-mail mickpaynter@paynter6862.fsnet.co.uk

St Ives Thursdays, 18.00-19.30, Fishermen's Lodge, suitable for beginners, contact Mick Paynter on 01736 795874 or e-mail mickpaynter@paynter6862.fsnet.co.uk

St Ives Thursdays, 19.30-21.00, Fishermen's Lodge, suitable for advanced students, contact Mick Paynter on 01736 795874 or e-mail mickpaynter@paynter6862.fsnet.co.uk

Outside Cornwall

London Fridays, 18.00-19.00, City Lit, suitable for beginners/intermediate students, contact Polin Prys at rosmodres@hotmail.com or Tony Hak on 01344 424105 or visit http://www.citylit.ac.uk/courses/Languages/Cornish

London Fridays, 19.00-20.00, City Lit, suitable for advanced students, contact Polin Prys at rosmodres@hotmail.com or Tony Hak on 01344 424105 or visit http://www.citylit.ac.uk/courses/Languages/Cornish

Distance Learning

Dynargh Kernewek - call Hilary Shaw on 01326 340562

E- Cornish - e-mail Jan Lobb janicelobb@gmail.com

Kernewek Dre Lyther - see the Kernewek Dre Lyther website

Keskewsel - e-mail course, contact jerry@keskewsel.com or call 01726 824784, see the Keskewsel website

Conversation Groups

These are informal get-togethers which welcome learners and speakers of all standards and forms to practise their Cornish and enjoy chatting together.

Gwinear, Royal Standard, first Tuesday each month, contact jori.ansell@tiscali.co.uk

Gulval, Coldstreamer, third Wednesday each month, contact koreen@freshapproachaccountancy.co.uk

Mabe, New Inn, fourth Thursday each month, contact gwenenen45@btinternet.com

Scorrier, Plume of Feathers, last Tuesday each month, contact ray@spyrys.org

St Ives, Cornish Arms, third Tuesday each month, contact deliabrotherton@aol.com

Truro, Riverbank, second and fourth Wednesday each month, join the Yeth an Werin Truru group on Facebook

East Cornwall occasional socials, contact mpiercekernow@btinternet.com


http://www.magakernow.org.uk/Default.aspx?page=18

[thestoat]

Gob - that can't possibly be. It must be some imaginary school ...

[Lord Jim]

Speaking of admitting to being mistaken, it's my turn have no choice but to do that....

Someone recently, (I won't say who) sent me a PM informing me that in one of his posts, Andrew was claiming to have an IQ so high that it was "unmeasurable"....

Good lord....

Even Albert Einstein's IQ was "measurable"....

Prior to hearing about this, I was absolutely convinced that there was nothing the man could say that could possibly convince me that he was an even bigger egomaniac then I had already concluded he was....

I stand corrected....

[Andrew D]

That's interesting.

An "Advanced search" for postings by me containing the word "unmeasurable" yielded "No suitable matches" even after having been run thrice.

An "Advanced search" for postings by me containing the word "measurable" yielded one result -- a posting in which I quoted dgs49, and what he had posted contained the word "measurable"; what I posted did not.

"Advanced search" will not allow me to search for "IQ," because at least three letters are required in any search term.

So much for Lord Jim's claim.

(It's rather like his faux-conservative shtick. BS.)

[Andrew D]

I did, however, post this:

My beard drips vomit with an IQ so high that the margin of error makes an accurate estimate essentially impossible.

Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of statistics grasps that as the population size of a measurement decreases, the margin of error in that measurement increases.

Even Albert Einstein's IQ was "measurable"....

That would be an astounding feat, considering that he never took an IQ test.

Apparently, to Lord Jim, "measurable" means "we can guess".

And speaking of guesses, I have seen "estimates" (perhaps a charitable term) of Einstein's IQ ranging from 160 to 200+. I do not presume to speak for others, but to me, a range of 40+ on a scale of 0-200+ is not "an accurate estimate".

My IQ has been measured at 170 and at 183. To me, at least, a range of 13 on a scale of 0-183 is not "an accurate estimate".

But perhaps Lord Jim has a different understanding of "accurate" than I do.

[Andrew D]

Anyone who considers any of the foregoing bragging should consider the context in which my actual statement -- not the horseshit spewed by Lord Jim -- was made. And consider the difference between bragging and bemoaning:

And how did this work out for me later? I got to be the freak. Sure, I was the go-to-guy when there was some clusterfuck problem that no one else could figure out. Great. Kept me employed. But remember college? When you were out having fun and getting laid? Where the fuck do you think I was? I was busy being my own little freak show. With no audience.

* * *

And I take enough medications to stock a small pharmacy.

You want it? Please, please take it. I'm sick of it, colloquially and literally. I never wanted it. I never asked for it. I try to throw it up, and even the toilet won't take it; it ends up back in my face. My beard drips vomit with an IQ so high that the margin of error makes an accurate estimate essentially impossible.

You want it? Take it. Please, please, please, fucking take it.

(Emphases added; paragraph separations modified; typographical error corrected.)

Anyone who thinks that being a freak means being happy has a seriously fucked up idea of happiness.

Anyone who thinks that being both literally and colloquially sick of something means being content with that thing has a seriously fucked up idea of contentment.

And anyone who thinks that being medicated up to one's eyeballs is something to brag about has a seriously fucked up idea of bragworthiness.

[Sean]

And we're back to the new and unimproved Andrew.
Shame...

I think that the only possible mistake on Jim's part was putting the word 'unmeasureable' in quotation marks. Mind you, he was probably quoting the person who passed on the information so in this case the mistake is on their part.

Saying that, there is a fine line between saying one's IQ is unmeasurable and saying that it is "so high that the margin of error makes an accurate estimate essentially impossible".

It's pure bragging however you slice it.

A bit like posting loooong lists of institutions where one claims to have had work published...

[Andrew D]

Andrew: "What genuinely dead language has been resurrected?"
Gob: "Cornish"
Andrew: "Nope. At least, not until people start learning it as their first language, which does not appear to be in the offing any time soon"

Andrew then quotes a different meaning for dead:
"dead language
n.
A language, such as Latin, that is no longer learned as a native language by a speech community. "

That's the sort of thing lo would do. I would entirely agree that a language could be considered dead if it is "no longer learned as a native language by a speech community". But that is very different from requiring "people start learning it as their first language". And I am quite sure that if you visit Cornwall there will be plenty of people - who actually live there and therefore know about it - who would happily disagree with you.

So what do you mean by "native language"? "Native" has that whole "born" thing going on. If you didn't learn a language as your first language, then it is not your native language.

Unless one takes "native language" to mean the language of one's ancestors, if if one does not speak it oneself.

Even setting aside the definitional dubiety of that assertion, there is a critical problem:

If one adopts that assertion, then the language never died in the first place.

Some people may remember the question posed:

Which presents a trivia question: What genuinely dead language has been resurrected?

A language which never died in the first place (a) was never genuinely dead and (b) has not been resurrected.

That really should not be confusing ....

[Sean]

One point to consider... A native language could also mean native to a country or region rather than to a person. This would of course remove any necessity for it to be anybody's first language in order to be considered 'native'.

[quaddriver]

And we're back to the new and unimproved Andrew.
Shame...

I think that the only possible mistake on Jim's part was putting the word 'unmeasureable' in quotation marks. Mind you, he was probably quoting the person who passed on the information so in this case the mistake is on their part.

Saying that, there is a fine line between saying one's IQ is unmeasurable and saying that it is "so high that the margin of error makes an accurate estimate essentially impossible".

It's pure bragging however you slice it.

A bit like posting loooong lists of institutions where one claims to have had work published...

Sean, with all due, that is EXACTLY the crap that starts the arguments.

that is not a fine line, it is one word with a completely different meaning vs a nearly complete sentence with a completely different meaning.

I should not have to school you on the clear violation of mathematical principles involved here, since IQ, measurement and 'margin of error' (precision) are all mathematical objects with unambiguous meaning.

Call it as it is, LJ is theorized to have quoted someone who clearly screwed up. Nothing less. Prolly more.

(or put simply, if *I* had written that it would have started a 6 page flame war.)

[Rick]

Proly not between you and Andrew unless the 2 of you kept it up...

[Sean]

Nice to get a totally unbiased point of view from You Quad...

[quaddriver]

Nice to get a totally unbiased point of view from You Quad...

show me the bias? I can see what LJ wrote. I can see what Andrew wrote. If you can show clearly how these two sentrence/phrase/word constructs walk a 'fine line' (your words) I will listen. Is it really that hard to admit that LJs post was once again more of the backsniping crap with no basis in reality?

[thestoat]

Andrew, you do make a good point. However, remember your statements

Andrew: "What genuinely dead language has been resurrected?"
Gob: "Cornish"
Andrew: "Nope. At least, not until people start learning it as their first language, which does not appear to be in the offing any time soon"

You didn't say "Nope, Cornish didn't die out"

So what do you mean by "native language"?

I have given a good wiki definition of this but you refuse to accept it

I am not familiar with the history of Cornish. It could be that it died out by your definition (i.e. no longer learned as a native language) and then rose to prominence in the area more recently - the UK is trying to preserve its languages and there could well have been some push to do that. But I am not familiar enough with Cornish to say, and judging by your responses, you are not either.