Rick Perry's latest: sinners shouldn't be in the military

[rubato]

And I thought you were literate.

If Mormons are Christians, as several posters above agree, then they are explicitly listed. If they are not then they are not mentioned but that does not exclude them. The linked definition makes no claim that their list is exhaustive, and of course it could not be.

Try reading yourself.


yrs,
rubato

[Crackpot]

What?

They are not monotheistic because they believe in the existence of other Gods. This goes the central tenet of the religious tradition Jesus (the christ) was claiming to fulfill hence they are not Christian. all this as already been covered in this thread had you bothered to read it.

Scooter was trying to get around this by claiming that they only worshiped one god, but, as I linked this is contrary to the very definition of monotheism.

Up to speed now?

[Sean]

It is...difficult...to argue with people who make shit up. To wit,

"Roman catholics would, until recently, say protestants are not "christian."" Total, made-up nonsense. The RC Church taught until about 50 years ago that one could not get into heaven unless one were baptized, but protestant baptism was never an issue - it was accepted by the Church. Thus, the Church has never officially denied the Christianity of mainstream protestantism. The Church has modified its teaching about baptism being required for salvation, but continues to teach that a belief in God is necessary (plus other elements).

Where do you pick up your ridiculously false information from? That is simply made up bullshit.

[rubato]

The RC church murdered protestants from Cathars to Waldensies to Hugenots for hundreds of years.

What kind of ignorant jackass mole thinks they accepted protestants as Christians?

yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

What?

They are not monotheistic because they believe in the existence of other Gods. This goes the central tenet of the religious tradition Jesus (the christ) was claiming to fulfill hence they are not Christian. all this as already been covered in this thread had you bothered to read it.

Scooter was trying to get around this by claiming that they only worshiped one god, but, as I linked this is contrary to the very definition of monotheism.

Up to speed now?

Scooter is correct. If you worship one god you are a monotheist. And this is the definition of monotheism.

I think you are stumbling over the fact that the term "god" is not used with uniform precision but when the definition is narrowed to "that which is an object of worship", Mormons clearly qualify.

I'm amazed by the anti-Mormon bigotry of the right wing in America. They are better Christians than nearly all putative Christians.

Mind you, as a non-religious person, I think all your shit is made up crap to gull the stupid. It's the old three-card monte on the sidewalk foakes!


yrs,
rubato

[Crackpot]

Did you bother looking it up? Or are we playing lets make our own definitions? Moron.

[dales]

Why Mormons Are NOT Christians....

http://www.seafox.com/mormons.html

Are Mormons Christian?
by Cooper Abrams

The subtitle is "The Bible and LDS Scriptures Prove Conclusively that Mormons Are not Biblical Christians" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Historically, only until recently have Mormons wanted to be called Christians, preferring not to be included with Christian denominations, which Joseph Smith said were, "all wrong ... all their creeds were an admonition in his sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt" (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, 2:18-19).

Mormons have preferred to be called "saints"; however, in the recent years the LDS church has spent millions in an intense "PR" campaign aimed at moving the church into the mainstream of Christianity. The political and economic benefits of Mormons being included in the mainstream of Christianity are obvious. Further, for Mormons to be accepted as traditional Christians would greatly aid in proselytizing the members of Christian denominations into the LDS church. This is why the LDS church is trying so hard to present itself as Christian and is trying to overcome the stigma of being a cult.

The answer to the question, "Are Mormons Christians," is simple. They are not Christians for several reasons, and their unbiblical doctrines show them to be a "Christian" cult.

<snip>

They may be "good" people but they have NO inheritance in God's Kingdom.

[Sean]

I'm not sure about the source Dales... considering Mr Abrams could not even string a coherent first sentence together.

Who is he anyway? Is there a reason we should take his word as gospel (pun definitely intended)?

[rubato]

Why Mormons Are NOT Christians....

http://www.seafox.com/mormons.html

Are Mormons Christian?
by Cooper Abrams

The subtitle is "The Bible and LDS Scriptures Prove Conclusively that Mormons Are not Biblical Christians" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Historically, only until recently have Mormons wanted to be called Christians, preferring not to be included with Christian denominations, which Joseph Smith said were, "all wrong ... all their creeds were an admonition in his sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt" (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, 2:18-19).

Mormons have preferred to be called "saints"; however, in the recent years the LDS church has spent millions in an intense "PR" campaign aimed at moving the church into the mainstream of Christianity. The political and economic benefits of Mormons being included in the mainstream of Christianity are obvious. Further, for Mormons to be accepted as traditional Christians would greatly aid in proselytizing the members of Christian denominations into the LDS church. This is why the LDS church is trying so hard to present itself as Christian and is trying to overcome the stigma of being a cult.

The answer to the question, "Are Mormons Christians," is simple. They are not Christians for several reasons, and their unbiblical doctrines show them to be a "Christian" cult.

<snip>

They may be "good" people but they have NO inheritance in God's Kingdom.

Yawn, and yet another "Mormons aren't Christians because I say so. Nya nya nya." post.

For 2,000 years we've been hearing this crap about one Christian denomination or another. The RC church has killed millions for failure to conform to its own narrow doctrines. You will recall that the Pope backed the Spanish Armada to attack Anglican England for heresy. And Phillip II (called "that evil spider" by QE I) was a Catholic fanatic who wanted to depose QE I to overthrow the C of E.

yrs,
rubato

__________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Armada
History
[edit] Background
Philip II of Spain c. 1580, National Portrait Gallery, London

Philip II of Spain had been co-monarch of England until the death of his wife Mary I in 1558. A devout Roman Catholic, he deemed Mary's Protestant half-sister Elizabeth a heretic and illegitimate ruler of England. He had previously supported plots to have her overthrown in favour of her Catholic cousin and heir presumptive, Mary, Queen of Scots, but was thwarted when Elizabeth had Mary imprisoned, and finally executed in 1587. In addition, Elizabeth, who sought to advance the cause of Protestantism where possible, had supported the Dutch Revolt against Spain. In retaliation, Philip planned an expedition to invade England so as to overthrow the Protestant regime of Elizabeth, thereby ending the English material support for the United Provinces— that part of the Low Countries that had successfully seceded from Spanish rule – and cutting off English attacks on Spanish trade and settlements[11] in the New World. The king was supported by Pope Sixtus V, who treated the invasion as a crusade, with the promise of a subsidy should the Armada make land.[12]

... "
______________________________

[dgs49]

Battles between and among Christian sects are in no way dispositive of whether they considered each other Christians, any more than battles between Sunni and Shia indicate they deny that the other sect is Muslim. Protestants have argued for centuries that Catholics are wrong in claiming that good works are part and parcel of salvation, as opposed to being saved by faith alone. These are internal disputes, albeit taken "serious as death" by some of the disputing parties.

Again, if you discount the opinions of the people most knowledgeable about the subject matter (i.e., biblical scholars), how can you possibly expect to reach the correct conclusion? There is NO DISAGREEMENT IN THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY about whether Mormons are Christians. Joseph Fucking Smith himself said that all Christian faiths were an abomination, and that the Bible was fatally flawed.

But if you want to conclude that the matter is unresolved, or that LDS is simply another Protestant sect, by all means believe it.

[rubato]

Sure thing there sport. We'll all just pretend the last 2000 years never happened:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_%28 ... guation%29

Heresy is a religious act or opinion held to be in opposition or ardent violation of the stated doctrine of the Christian Church (particularly the Holy Roman or Roman Catholic Church)or that of any church, creed, or religious system.

[rubato]

http://xenophongroup.com/montjoie/albigens.htm

Béziers
On 21 July, the crusaders reached Béziers and demanded that the Cathars in the popularion be handed over. This was refused even by the Roman Catholics of the town. The tradition of Cathar strength in this town went back to 1167, when they murdered their vicomte, Raymond-Roger I de Trencavel, in revenge for one of his knights having killed a Cathar. In return the vicomte's son, Raymond-Roger II, had the town ransacked in 1169. Domingo de Guzmán and Pierre de Castelnau had attempted to confront the popularion in 1206.
On the afternoon of 22 July, the town launched a sortie which, when forced back into the town, was closely persued by a band of the crusaders. Once inside the walls of the town, the crusaders seized Béziers within an hour. Immediately there began a mass slaughter of Catholics and Cathars, alike. When asked by one of the crusader warriors about the possible killing of Catholics along with the heretic Cathars, Arnaud-Amaury is supposed to have delivered his nefarious statement "Kill them all! God will recognize His own!" Accounts vary as to the numbered slaughtered (10,000 to 20,000, with just over 200 estimated to have been Cathars) in this, the bloodiest and first, battle of the crusade. The massacre frightened many other towns to surrender without resistance.


"Tuez-les tous; Dieu reconnaitra les siens."
("Kill them all; for the Lord knoweth them that are His.")

Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Citeaux, 1209, when asked by the Crusaders what to do with the citizens of Beziers who were a mixture of Catholics and Cathars.

[rubato]

Had the power of the state not been stripped from the church and given to secular government you would still be murdering the same people as heretics which you now claim are accepted as christians:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensian ... aldensians
________________________________

Catholic response to Waldensians
Illustrations depicting Waldensians as witches in Le champion des dames, by Martin Le France, 1451.

The members of the group were declared schismatics in 1184 in France and heretics more widely in 1215 by Pope Innocent III during the Fourth Council of the Lateran's anathema. The rejection by the Church radicalized the movement; in terms of ideology the Waldensians became more obviously anti-Catholic—rejecting the authority of the clergy.


...
Later history

In 1655 the Duke of Savoy commanded the Vaudois to attend Mass or remove to the upper valleys, giving them twenty days in which to sell their lands. In a most severe winter these targets of persecution, old men, women, little children and the sick "waded through the icy waters, climbed the frozen peaks, and at length reached the homes of their impoverished brethren of the upper Valleys, where they were warmly received." There they found refuge and rest. Deceived by false reports of Vaudois resistance, the Duke sent an army. On 24 April 1655, at 4 a.m., the signal was given for a general massacre, the horrors of which can be detailed only in small part.
Print illustrating the 1655 massacre in La Torre, from Samuel Morelands "History of the Evangelical Churches of the Valleys of Piemont" published in London in 1658.

The massacre was so brutal it aroused indignation throughout Europe. Oliver Cromwell, then ruler in England, began petitioning on behalf of the Vaudois, writing letters, raising contributions, calling a general fast in England and threatening to send military forces to the rescue. The massacre prompted John Milton's famous poem on the Waldenses, "On the Late Massacre in Piedmont".[27] The resistance which lasted into the 1660s was then led by a farmer, Josué Janavel.[28]
Waldensian Church of Florence, Italy

In 1685 Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes, which had guaranteed freedom of religion to his Protestant subjects in France. The cousin of Louis, The Duke of Savoy, Victor Amadeus II followed his uncle in removing the protection of Protestants in the Piedmont. In the renewed persecution, an edict decreed that all inhabitants of the Valleys should publicly announce their error in religion within fifteen days under penalty of death and banishment and the destruction of all the Vaudois churches. Armies of French and Piedmontese soldiers invaded the Valleys, laying them waste and perpetrating cruelties upon the inhabitants. A pastor Henri Arnaud sought help from William of Orange. He gathered a band of followers in Switzerland; and in 1689 made an attempt to regain their homes in the valleys.
... "
__________________________________________

yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

Actually the historical record is more that with even small differences in doctrine 'christian' sects were treated by each other as being non-christian. All of whom you now claim are accepted as Christians.




__________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptist

Persecutions and migrations


Much of the historic Roman Catholic and Protestant literature has represented the Anabaptists as groups who preached false doctrine and led people into apostasy. That negative historiography remained popular for about four centuries. The Roman Catholics and other Protestants alike persecuted the Anabaptists, resorted to torture and other types of physical abuse, in attempts to curb the growth of the movement. The Protestants under Zwingli were the first to persecute the Anabaptists. Felix Manz became the first martyr in 1527. The Anabaptists were the most persecuted sect throughout the Catholic Reformation, mainly because they broke away from the Catholic Church and questioned many of the main Catholic beliefs.

On May 20, 1527, Roman Catholic authorities executed Michael Sattler. King Ferdinand declared drowning (called the third baptism) "the best antidote to Anabaptism". The Tudor regime, even those that were Protestant (Edward VI of England and Elizabeth I of England) persecuted Anabaptists as they were deemed too radical and therefore a danger to religious stability. The persecution of Anabaptists was condoned by ancient laws of Theodosius I and Justinian I that were passed against the Donatists which decreed the death penalty for any who practiced rebaptism.

Thieleman J. van Braght's Martyrs Mirror describes the persecution and execution of thousands of Anabaptists, such as Dirk Willems, in Austria, Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and other parts of Europe between 1525 and 1660. Continuing persecution in Europe was largely responsible for the mass immigrations to North America by Amish, Hutterites, and Mennonites. Similarly, when the Münster Anabaptists held power they harshly persecuted other Christians, for example murdering men for apostasy and sexually enslaving their wives during the Münster Rebellion (Source: [28]). In contrast to the Münster Anabaptists the Swiss Brethren/Mennonites, and the Hutterians follow a pacifist path.

... "
_______________________________

[rubato]

I think all the nasty little bigots just need someone to hate and Mormons and Homosexuals are now 'it'.



yrs,
rubato

[dales]

I'm not sure about the source Dales... considering Mr Abrams could not even string a coherent first sentence together.

Who is he anyway? Is there a reason we should take his word as gospel (pun definitely intended)?

I'm sure you're familiar with this, Sean....

The Nicene Creed


I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The LDS church does not adhere to these beliefs and therefore are NOT Christian.

[rubato]

The Nicene Creed

...

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...

Non-Roman Catholic sects don't believe in this one. If the LDS do not believe in all of the others you'll have to show a source which says that.


And you have yourself denied the resurrection of the dead at the second coming. Maybe you're not a christian?

yrs,
rubato

[dales]

catholic=general.............not necessesarily the Roman church.

And you have yourself denied the resurrection of the dead at the second coming. Maybe you're not a christian?

No, I did not.

[Sean]

I'm not sure about the source Dales... considering Mr Abrams could not even string a coherent first sentence together.

Who is he anyway? Is there a reason we should take his word as gospel (pun definitely intended)?

I'm sure you're familiar with this, Sean....

The Nicene Creed


I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The LDS church does not adhere to these beliefs and therefore are NOT Christian.

Yes Dales, I am very familiar with that having been raised as a Catholic. The point has already been made though, if adherence to The Nicene Creed is essential to be a Christian then all non-Catholics are non-Christians. The kicker is this bit... "And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church."

That, however, does not have anything to do with Mr Abrams or why he should be believed...

[dales]

Sean posted:

Yes Dales, I am very familiar with that having been raised as a Catholic. The point has already been made though, if adherence to The Nicene Creed is essential to be a Christian then all non-Catholics are non-Christians. The kicker is this bit... "And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church."

As I replied to rubato:

Catholic means general not necessarily the Roman church.

That, however, does not have anything to do with Mr Abrams or why he should be believed...

I dunno who Mr. Abrams is, his site popped up during a search engine search.