by dgs49 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:07 pm
Dear Alice,
Thank you for taking the time to respond in detail.
At the risk of seeming argumentative, I submit that you have ignored the factor of context. The language we use can vary greatly according to context. When I'm giving a seminar I use proper grammar, I minimize the use of slang, I use words having specific (or even technical) meaning, and I speak slowly, to be heard and understood.
When I'm in a "mixed" group, I speak more colloquially, less technically, and seldom use words that are not commonly understood.
When I'm at a gathering of close friends I use more slang, more profanity, and occasionally use ungrammatical expressions that are in common use, often for humorous effect.
There are some words, expressions, and slang that I use in writing, but would not generally use when speaking. When writing, you know that you have the person's attention, and you also normally know more about the intended reader.
When posting on line, I often use a stream-of-consciousness style, internet slang, and incorporate expressions that I know from past history that the "audience" will understand. I would never say, "WTF," but I use it when posting on the internet.
All of the comments in my previous postings must be read in the context of posting on line, while describing oral communications in different contexts. A person working behind the counter of a fast-food restaurant has an obligation to the customer to speak clearly, correctly, and courteously. "Can I help who's next," is not acceptable, and is no easier than saying, "May I help you?" Or, "Who is next?"
And so on.
AND ANOTHER EXPRESSION THAT BUGS ME...
...is "...aren't I?"
As in, "I'm the fattest person in the room, aren't I?"
Bullshit.
There are a couple ways of expressing this thought properly, and none of them exactly rolls off the tongue, but that doesn't excuse the grammatical abomination of, "...aren't I?"
"Am I not the fattest person in the room?" or,
"I am the fattest person in the room, am I not?"
Of course, the reason for the conundrum is that NO ONE wants to be caught in public using the expression, "...ain't I?"
But to avoid that, we have come up with, "...aren't I," which is just as bad.
You couldn't say, "I are the fattest person in the room," could you? It would obviously be a gramatical faux pas.
"...aren't I," sounds to me like someone who wants - and fails - to sound intelligent.
I'm with the late W.F. Buckley, who proposed that in this one limited context, "...ain't I?" should be acceptable.
My apologies for taking so long to respond. One of the reasons I don't participate much is because I can't always guarantee how long it will be before I can get back to the board, and I don't think it's fair to challenge a comment/post and then not follow through if someone bothers to respond (to 'post and run', or 'drive by post', so to speak!).
In response to the remark you made, I certainly don't believe it is argumentative to want to clarify your view - I appreciate debate when it's respectfully done
I think the thread has moved on from this topic (and I will have to 'Youtube' dave Barry when I have a bit more spare time!), but I thought I would, belatedly, still address your last post to me.
My view is that I did not believe I ignored the context with my response, especially regarding the person talking on the phone saying 'where you at'. for me, that person would appear to be talking informally and colloquially with their friend, and for me there would not be a problem and no other perception of that person other than presuming they were addressing people they were familiar with, or people of like-minded speech habits.
I suppose if I knew they were going for something like a job interview and was in any way involved in the selection, it may make a difference, depending on the job they were going for - I may have a passing thought that their speech habit may not be suitable for a call centre job, for example. But even then, that's my own perception and my own generalisations. There are many, many jobs where a person using the local slang may fit in well - from detectives (like Ice T? on the Special Victims Unit show!!), to social working, counselling, teaching etc. And many, many jobs where the speech is totally irrelevant, as long as the writing and collation of data are precise - many scientific research fields for example.
My understanding was that you made some generalisations in your opening post, and I responded to a couple of those.
I didn't respond initially to the person at the fast food counter saying 'can I help who's next'. I obviously wasn't there to hear it, but my first thought when I read your post was that the person probably says 'who's next' and 'can I help' and 'next please' and other minor variations a million times over, and they've eventually just run them together in that monotonal non-caring way we tend to do when something becomes just an automatic, non-thinking part of our speech. I agree that it is no easier than saying it properly, but I do think that - in my perception of the context in this instance - it's just a young person in a part time, casual employment that they don't much care for, serving customers they don't much care for, and tired of saying the same thing over and over again.
The last example you just gave ("...aren't I?") has me thinking. I've heard the expression a lot, and have probably used it myself, but until you mentioned it I hadn't really thought about it literally meaning 'are not I', which is of course quite a lumpy statement. I don't agree with 'Am I not the fattest person in the room', or "I am the fattest person in the room, am I not?" as alternatives because they're just as 'lumpy'. It would be just as easy to ask 'Am I the fattest person in the room?' - the 'not' is really quite redundant. I suspect it's a relic of a former old English way of speaking, just going by some of the books, movies, tv series etc I've seen at various times, when previous century English language seemed to use such phrasing as 'Am I not..', "Shall I not..." etc. However given my sources for presuming this, I don't know how accurate my presumption is
.
I suppose the other way of phrasing it, if the negative was wanted in the speech, would be along the lines of "I'm not the fattest in the room, am I?" - correct or not, for me that would be another 'usual' way of expressing it.
Having written all this, I just looked Mirriam-Webster, who state
aren't
\ˈärnt, ˈär-ənt\
Definition of AREN'T
1: are not <they aren't here yet>
2: am not —used in questions <I'm right, aren't I?>
First Known Use of AREN'T
1675
The site
http://www.grammarerrors.com/ has a discussion on the use of 'aren't' - I've included a link, rather than continue with the 'cut'n'paste'
http://www.grammarerrors.com/grammar/arent-iam-i-not/
You've certainly given me food for thought with that one! It doesn't 'bug' me, and as i said, I've probably used it myself, but until your post it was an expression I hadn't really thought about. It was interesting research!
Just on a trivial note - until quite recently I used to use the term's 'shall' and 'shan't' in my everyday speech. I have no idea why I started using them, but they are terms I've used for as long as I can remember, and certainly since at least my early teens. It was probably quite an interesting turn of speech to have mixed in with my usual Aussie 'strine'!! I gradually stopped using the terms as I realised, more and more, that I sounded like a relic from some Dickensian era and that fewer and fewer people - at least in Australia - had ever heard of the terms. (I was reminded of it when I was researching 'aren't' - other than than it has no real bearing on the discussion
)
It's only proper, because he's a comedian, we pay him to do that. And we pay him WELL- I checked with his agency and he runs anywhere from $20,000- to $30,000- a booking [I'm not making this up] not including his transportation, lodging, casino chips and a casino built to his specifications. One time, they made the casino too far across the parking lot, and he did his whole show from a golf cart in the valet parking so he wouldn't waste any valuable gambling time.
Sorry it was so long. I'll try to cut down the size of my posts. I do tend to ramble a bit. Apologies to all. 
