Bully for Him!!

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Lord Jim
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by Lord Jim »

So, the bully was very likely fighting back while being stabbed.
Joe. in looking again at that comment, I think it really encapsulates the extent to which we are really on two completely different planets about this....

What you are seeing as "very likely" I see as extremely remote.....

In fact, it is such a remote scenario to me, that until you mentioned it, it had not even occurred to me as a possibility...

To me, that would fall into the "horror movie psycho killer that just keeps coming" scenario I mentioned earlier....

But to you that must have seemed like such an obvious likelihood, that you believed that everyone would naturally assume it to be the case... (hence your question about the last two stabs being the kill shots... that makes perfect sense if you start with the "the kid was still fighting" as your assumption; but which I thought was a typo.)
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Joe Guy
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by Joe Guy »

Lord Jim wrote:
So, the bully was very likely fighting back while being stabbed.
I'm sorry, but I see absolutely no reason to believe that...

It seems much more plausible to me that the reason the killer was able to get in 12 stabs was because the other kid wasn't effectively putting up a fight.....
But given the fact that the ruling was the opposite of what you would have ruled based on your limited information about the case, there is a very good likelihood that the other kid was fighting back.
Lord Jim wrote:It seems far more likely to me that a teenager bleeding from multiple stab wounds is going to be more likely to be freaked out about their own condition, than methodically trying to carry out a beating....
If so, why didn't the bully run away? And if he did try to run and couldn't, don't you think that would have made a difference in the verdict?
Lord Jim wrote:
I don't know if you read my earlier question, but would your opinion be any different if it was the last two stabs that were fatal?
To be honest Joe, I didn't respond to that because I thought "were " might have been a typo....

To my mind, if it was the last two stabs that killed the kid it is worse....

That means, that if the killer had been satisfied with stabbing the other kid only ten times, there would have been no killing....
But if you look at my explanation of a possible scenario, the bullied child may still have been defending himself, even after stabbing the bully a few times.

My point is that I don't believe that the judge made a ruling based on an article he or she read on the internet. There are facts that we don't have, and, based on the ruling, I'm suggesting possible facts rather than assuming the judge was wrong and the bullied kid was a heartless bloody murderer.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by BoSoxGal »

LJ, no offense, but you don't have the real world experience with these kind of scenarios that I do - if you did, you wouldn't be making the assertions you are making.

Being stabbed with a little pocket knife doesn't fell a person after the first or second stab. The kid being stabbed likely was fighting still, because he probably thought he was just being punched. I've talked to a number of victims and witnesses of such stabbings and heard that same scenario over and over. It's not like there is much to 'wield' in a pocket knife.

The scenarios you are describing are overly dramatic and unrealistic. Read a little more in the realm of true crime and you might realize that.

And yes, I don't waste time feeling sorry for dead people, since they are dead and no longer feel anything. I save my feelings of empathy and sympathy for the living who still suffer. There is nothing except your own fantasies upon which to base your assertions that the bullying victim - who tried to RUN AWAY to avoid a confrontation - is a coldhearted killer thrilled by his actions. :loon
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by Lord Jim »

But given the fact that the ruling was the opposite of what you would have ruled based on your limited information about the case, there is a very good likelihood that the other kid was fighting back.
Sorry Joe, I've seen too many whacky and hare brained decisions in my time to ever just assume that "the judge knows best"...

In this case, her decision seems long on conclusions and very thin citations of specific supporting evidence for those conclusions, which leads me to strongly suspect that this is an example of ideology directing justice.
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Joe Guy
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by Joe Guy »

Lord Jim wrote:In this case, her decision seems long on conclusions and very thin citations of specific supporting evidence for those conclusions, which leads me to strongly suspect that this is an example of ideology directing justice.
Since I believe that neither of us have seen the 'citations of specific supporting evidence', my opinion is based on the idea that I haven't seen all of the facts and the judge has seen all of the facts.

Other than that, both of us only have our own experience and/or trust or distrust of the system's ability to get to the truth of the matter.

I've chosen to accept the judge's ruling because I wasn't there to hear all of the evidence and based on the scenario provided, it seems logical to me that the 14 yr old acted in self defense - regardless of how harsh his actions may seem to a lot of people.

You, on the other hand, appear to have decided that, based on the "facts" given in the news article, that because the "killer" stabbed the bully 12 times, he was not acting legally and should be treated as a murderer.

I think we both have legitimate reasons to believe we are right.

But, based on all of the information I've seen and heard regarding this case, I also have a legitimate reason to believe that I am righter than you.... :)

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loCAtek
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by loCAtek »

Joe Guy wrote:there is a very good likelihood that the other kid was fighting back.
Joe, my assertion that the bully didn't fight back is based upon the placement of the wounds: abdomen and chest. If he had been fending off a knife there would be wounds on his hands and arms, but all twelve strikes were said to be on the torso, indicating that he didn't put up a fight, by blocking the blade.

My hypothesis is that Dylan was punching the back of Jorge's head from behind, as he tried to flee. While the punches went on, Jorge drew the knife, but Dylan couldn't see it, as he was behind Jorge. Jorge then whirled on Dylan, who was already with in striking distance, and proceeded to quickly strike over and over, not giving Dylan any time to back off or defend himself. By the time, Jorge stopped, turned and fled, Dylan was mortally wounded by penetrating chest trauma, and fell to the ground.

Judging from eye-witness accounts, death was from the puncture of a lung, not the heart nick.
Last edited by loCAtek on Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by BoSoxGal »

Yes, well now we've heard from a real top notch forensic expert, it all makes sense. :roll:
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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loCAtek
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by loCAtek »

Who? Did I say I was expert? By all means, refute my hypothesis please.

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Sean
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by Sean »

<SVU Music Plays>
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

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loCAtek
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by loCAtek »

Very well, by all means, refute my hypothesis please.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by BoSoxGal »

The hypothesis based on nothing but pure speculation and the arrogance developed by watching Dr. G on the Discovery channel?

I think not.

I know better than to speculate as to manner of death without pathology reports in front of me detailing the exact placement and nature of wounds. See, I've actually worked a few stabbings already, and I know (because the victims lived and actually told me) that a person can be stabbed more than once in the torso despite defending himself, and that being stabbed by a small knife feels like being punched - many victims don't realize they've been stabbed until blood begins to flow. They may even enthusiastically continue their end of the 'fistfight' after being stabbed more than once.

Your hypothesis, Dr. loCAtroll, is pure BS conjecture with more than a few flat out incorrect assumptions thrown in for good measure.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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loCAtek
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by loCAtek »

Which was my point, there were no defensive wounds, according to reports. It's been verified that the wounds were placed on the torso, not the hands or arms, which would indicate little or no self-defense enacted. In conjunction with the witness accounts of Jorge 'punching [Dylan's] abdomen' then fleeing, before Dylan could respond with his self-defensive motions, before collapsing.

The point is there is no evidence of Dylan defending himself; neither forensically nor from the witnesses*. Meaning, Jorge over-reacted, became over-aggressive for the situation, and should have been charged with manslaughter.

We accuse cops of excessive use of force, why not civilians?

*There's no evidence of Dylan acting to kill Jorge, which is what he contends, as per his [legal] defense.

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Guinevere
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by Guinevere »

Loca, again, you and the others have no idea what the evidence was and wasn't. You're all speculating.

Go ahead and guess and postulate, that's what we do here, but please don't claim your position is based on "evidence" or the lack thereof.
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loCAtek
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by loCAtek »

Granted, my speculation was based upon the available evidence as presented by the media, as such, until further info becomes available, it appears to me, Jorge Saavedra committed negligent manslaughter.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by Lord Jim »

There is nothing except your own fantasies upon which to base your assertions that the bullying victim - who tried to RUN AWAY to avoid a confrontation - is a coldhearted killer thrilled by his actions. :loon
That is both totally out of context, and a complete mis-characterization of what I said.

First, re the context. My comment was a response to the pure speculation about the killer's future psychological condition which you asserted as though it were an established fact:
I feel far worse for the survivor, who skipped school and avoided riding the bus to avoid this 'kid's' bullying, and will be psychologically scarred for life by the act of defending himself from harm.
(Actually two bits of pure speculation there; first, the clear implication that the killer was still "defending himself" at the time of the 12th knife stab, and then the obvious pure speculation regarding the killer's lifelong psychological condition...in fact there appears to be a third bit of pure speculation implied in that quote; that the killer's skipping school and avoiding the bus was justified by the actions of the kid he killed, rather than a gross over-reaction. This is also pure speculation, since I again point out, we have seen no evidence on the extent of the the alleged bullying.)

It was in response to your pure speculation presented as fact about the killer's future mental state that I posited this hypothetical:
his assumed "psychological scarring" (again, no proof of this either; for all we know the kid could be proud of himself and happy about what he did)
Obviously, I was not asserting as a fact (as you had done) anything about his mental state;but merely tossing out an alternative possibility for which there we have every bit as much evidence, (ie none) as there was for your assertion.

BTW, it seems to me that the killer could be "proud and happy" about what he had done without being a (as you put it in your mischaracterization of what I said) "coldhearted killer thrilled by his actions"

All that would be required for the killer to be "proud and happy" over what he did, would be for him to feel (as you apparently do ) that he was fully justified in killing the other kid, as a matter of self defense. He might also feel that he had struck a blow, (well, twelve blows) for the rights of the bullied everywhere.

It seems to me that, in order to be "psychologically scarred for life" (the pure speculation that you have presented as fact,) the killer would have to feel some sort of doubt about whether or not the extent of the violence he meted out was justified. He would be tormented about whether what he did was really necessary in order to defend himself. He would be scarred by questions about whether is response was truly commensurate with the threat he faced.

You are apparently not burdened by any of these doubts or questions; what proof do you have that the killer is?

(Oh, and if you're going to try to answer that question, I'd really appreciate it if you would please confine your answer to actual proof you have about this specific case, and not try to claim that your experience with "similar" situations somehow automatically validates your conclusions about this and makes them facts. Because of the paucity of specifics that we have about this case, any comparison between this and any other case you have encountered, and alleged "similarities" would be yet more pure speculation. )
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loCAtek
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by loCAtek »

In researching street fighting, I called none other than the BF, as he's lived in bad neighborhoods his whole life ...and he brought up a very good point, that we all seemed to have missed;

If Jorge, had been bullied for so long and so harshly, that felt he had no recourse but to kill his bully; why didn't he tell any authorities? I understand this may be information that's been left out by the media, but I can only see his action being justified by his getting no help at all from his parents, his teachers, the bus driver or perhaps the police.

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Joe Guy
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Re: Bully for Him!!

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loCAtek wrote: If Jorge, had been bullied for so long and so harshly, that felt he had no recourse but to kill his bully; why didn't he tell any authorities?
You're saying that he committed premeditated murder. That wasn't even a consideration in this case.

The only real disagreement here is whether or not he was justified in stabbing the bully 12 times.

Some say yes and others say no.

You either had to be at the scene or have been in court to have a more informed opinion. All we can do here is create scenarios to support our opinion, which for me is just based on online articles and what I heard on talk radio.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by Lord Jim »

I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to find the full text of the judge's decision...

I would very much like to see if it includes specific evidence citations to support her decision, or if it just has the the conclusions quoted in the press, without any reference to the actual supporting evidence.

If it's the former, then we'd have a lot more substance to look at. If it's the former, it would reinforce my opinion that the Judge may have been motivated more by personal opinion and ideology than by the actual evidence.
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loCAtek
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by loCAtek »

Joe Guy wrote:
loCAtek wrote: If Jorge, had been bullied for so long and so harshly, that felt he had no recourse but to kill his bully; why didn't he tell any authorities?
You're saying that he committed premeditated murder. That wasn't even a consideration in this case.
.
Yes it was, from the OP;
Fifteen-year-old Jorge Saavedra was facing a second-degree murder charge ...

...but I agree, we need more information.

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dales
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Re: Bully for Him!!

Post by dales »

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:54 am - By Lord Jim
I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to find the full text of the judge's decision...

Juvenile case.....prolly sealed?

Duh, I dunno. :mrgreen:
Last edited by dales on Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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