Rick Perry's latest: sinners shouldn't be in the military

[rubato]

Is is me or has one side of this debate subtly shifted to, "You are only a proper Christian if Catholics say so"?

Shifted?

Subtly?

That has been their overt position all along (except when the Pope disagrees with them).


yrs,
rubato

[dgs49]

The Catholic church is the only one with a central authority who can speak to the issue. They have formally spoken to this issue, and for anyone who is not an idiot or just typing to keep their fingers busy, the issue is resolved.

"Protestantism" does not have a "Pope" or a united council that takes such positions in a binding fashion. Dogmagic positions are rather anathema to Prods, since many believe that understanding Scriptures is a personal matter.

Fundamentalists churches (outside mainstream Protestantism) are self-described "Bible based," and if one would poll such ministers nationally, one would be hard-pressed to find any who consider LDS to be a "Christian" religion.

The definition posted above would be sufficient to anyone familiar with LDS to conclude without any doubt that LDS is NOT a Christian religion, despite their P.R. campaign to convince Christians that they are (without actually coming out and saying so, since to do so would subject them to comparisons of the edicts of Joseph Smith, which would directly contradict such a public statement).

Unless of course you believe that anyone who chooses to call himself "Christian" is Christian, in which case your participation in this discussion is rather perverse, since the word means nothing to you.

[liberty]

Does anyone remember the atheist Christians? They did not believe in the divinity of Christ or God, but called themselves followers Christ.

[dgs49]

I have known "good jews" who were atheists and agnostics.

I dare say most "Christians" don't really believe what they say they believe, otherwise they wouldn't live the lives they live.

And I include myself in that "criticism."

To me, I don't really care whether The Narrative is entirely true; it simply makes good sense to live as though it were.

[BoSoxGal]

Does anyone remember the atheist Christians? They did not believe in the divinity of Christ or God, but called themselves followers Christ.

I don't recall any such formal movement, but that has been my own philosophy for many years. I believe in the teachings of a man named Jesus who I believe was, essentially, a progressive socialist. I believe his message was in keeping with the Golden Rule and that he wanted people to live in such a way as to create a more socially just society here in this realm; I do not believe he claimed to be divine nor that he wanted us to focus our concern on an afterlife, but on seeking justice in this one. Liberation theology, without all the God bits.

[Crackpot]

Then you haven't read what he said.

[Liberty1]

I dare say most "Christians" don't really believe what they say they believe, otherwise they wouldn't live the lives they live.

And I include myself in that "criticism."

Don't be so hard on yourself DG, as I've said before, Christians are all by definition hypocrits, we have ideals we can never hope to live up to.

Christianity is the only organization in the world where no member is qualified to be a member. It's about belief and intent.

[Crackpot]

You don't know the definition of hypocrite. You're not a hypocrite unless you condemn those who have the same failures you yourself have. Did you mss Jesus' Beam/Mote speach?

[Liberty1]

From merriam - webster

Hypocrite - A person who acts in contridiction to their stated beliefs or feelings.

[dgs49]

The Golden Rule: He who has the Gold makes the Rules.

And don't forget it.

[Crackpot]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite

same site.

hyp·o·crite noun \ˈhi-pə-ˌkrit\

Definition of HYPOCRITE

1
: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2
: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
— hypocrite adjective

I would be intrested in what beliefs and feelings you hold and judge others by yet act contrary to.

[Liberty1]

That's between me and God. But I will say absolutely that I am far from perfect. Everyone is a sinner.

Perhaps you should start.

[Crackpot]

There is a difference between sinning and condemning others for sins you yourself commit.

But don't take it from me.

[Liberty1]

Which is why I said.

Christianity is the only organization in the world where no member is qualified to be a member. It's about belief and intent.

[Crackpot]

and how does that include condemning others for faults that you yourself possess?

[Liberty1]

Never said it did. As you cpoied as well, the definition of hypocrite says nothing about condemning others. It's about not living up to your own beliefs and expectations for yourself.

[BoSoxGal]

CP, I've done a lot of scholarly reading on the Bible both from anthropological and theological perspectives. I know that none of us can be certain what Jesus really said, and that the interpretation of his statements with regard to 'his Father's house,' etc., is open to more than one reading.

I find these discussions far more interesting amongst people whose religious beliefs are not rigid; those with rigid beliefs will only read the text of the Bible one way, generally speaking. I don't know if you fall squarely into that camp, but I do know from some of your posts that we are likely very divergent in our understanding of theological texts.

[Sean]

CP, there's nothing about judging/condemning others in the definition you posted... Or. in fact, in any definition I've ever seen for 'hypocrite'.

[Crackpot]

The "Son of Man" title is a dead giveaway though. Truth is alot of people look at the Olivet Discourse say "that sounds neat to me" and then ignore everything else he says. heck in the light of everything else he says it's clear the Olivet Discourse isn't as nice and touchy-feely as it seems.

AS it comes to how you read the bible there are only so many ways you can interpret a certain thing And when you take context, circumstances, and era in to account those interpretations narrow down rather quickly. My reading of the gospels gave me a much different perspective on Jesus than what alot of people generally accept. He wasn't all peace and love far from it he was one who often gave one a dose of vinegar just to make sure their intentions are good. The man had compassion in abundance but he didn't suffer fools.

THat being said I'm open to hearing new perspectives but I'm not going to accept something unless it has alot backing it up.

[Crackpot]

CP, there's nothing about judging/condemning others in the definition you posted... Or. in fact, in any definition I've ever seen for 'hypocrite'.

see the first example in the definitions.

Hypocrite in the Biblical use is more akin to it's greek root "actor" or more to the point one that puts on the act of being Pious , godly, whathaveyou. Those that would put themselves above others, which as I linked earlier, the bible has a unanimous opinion of. As such Hypocrite is not a label most Christians would relish.