Proof of Citizenship

[quaddriver]

That looks like, once again, he is skating dangerously close to accusing you of being a pedophile, in a way that he thinks is being clever.

As I state, I dont believe any law has been broken (but can be proven wrong of course) because I do not have direct evidence either way. But should I find out different, I PROMISE to become a one man media outlet on the events. (and that is not to be construed that I hope the law is broken because unlike some, I dont wish crap like that on kids - being a parent and all)


and scooter, curiously, doesnt his MO irk you in the least? He is the only homosexual who is voiciferously homophobic (witness the crap he pulled on myself and the 'cop named harry' - whcih started everything in motion). with wanton glibness does he not regress any progress you may have wanted to make in universal acceptance? or maybe you dont think such matters are important. your call.

[Joe Guy]

You need to make up your mind, quad.

Are you trying to convince people that I’m a homosexual or are you trying to convince people that I’m a pedophile?

It’s interesting how when I push you to come up with proof for one of your claims, and you can’t, you always respond by making up some things about my personal life. And further, you lie about having found some evidence about some vague thing that you want people to believe you are going to expose about me that will devastate me.

Do you not realize how silly that looks, quad? You’d do much better for yourself if you could just admit to being wrong.

So, here’s the latest I’ve gotten from quad. In recent days he has urged me to register to vote illegally in his state, called me a pedophile and a homophobic homosexual that has single-handedly stopped the progress of universal acceptance of homosexuals, claimed that I dared a policeman online to find me and then that the cop did find me (whatever that means) – and now quad has followed up with an implication that he has dug up some dirt on me and can’t wait to expose it.

It’s not the first time he’s done this. I guess it’s the only way he thinks he can get away from having to prove one of his outrageous claims.

Carry on, quad.

[Joe Guy]

Here’s what I found out from the “VotesPA.com” website when I followed up with a personal email inquiry asking about the voter registration process in Pennsylvania;

A person fills out an application to register to vote, sends it in and receives a voter registration card within two weeks. An SSN or Driver’s License number is not required. You must sign under penalty of perjury that you are a citizen, resident of Pennsylvania and will be 18 yrs old before the next election.

So, returning to what brought this discussion to this point; a voter registration card is not proof of citizenship – EVEN IN PENNSYLVANIA – the quad state. In fact the process in Pennsylvania is very similar to ours in California, which is very insecure according to quad.

As it says on the voter registration application that I referenced earlier, in order to vote for the first time in Pennsylvania a person would need to provide proof of identification either at the polling place or by mail. The same process applies in California. Acceptable proof of identification in Pennsylvania includes a non-photo ID, such as a bank statement or utility bill.

Although I don’t expect an admission from quad that he was/is wrong, I’m submitting this to the (few) people here who may have had interest in the subject.

The truth has been verified.

[BoSoxGal]

The truth is out there.

But not between quad's ears.

[Joe Guy]

Just bumping this thread up for quad.

He has some explaining to do.

[quaddriver]

Just bumping this thread up for quad.

He has some explaining to do.

Actually asshole, no I dont.

But unlike you, I actually did send an email.

and unlike you, I got a response. the pertinent part copied here:

The Department’s policy and procedures for use of the SURE data comparison component are clarified and revised to emphasize that under PA law, and consistent with the purposes and intent of HAVA, the decision whether to approve or reject a proper application for voter registration is vested with the voter registration commission, as provided by 25 Pa.C.S. 1328 (relating to approval of registration applications.)

Ms Moore, being a neighbor of sorts is sending me hard copy. I have already located the statue online (which any casual reader of will note that 'joe guys' explanation of is entirely BS) and posed a followup question as to how the identification process in enforced under the 14 day period.

Lo and behold a few moments ago I got the second response (score: me 2, you 0) and the pertinent part is quoted here:

I mailed you the printed copy, but I’m glad you were able to find it on line. My practice is to mail a letter to the person if they have not provided me with a phone number. If they provide a phone number I call and they will give me the omitted info. I hold the application until I hear from them. Unfortunately, most people ignore the letter. If they are truly interested in voting they will respond. I hold applications until I get a response. If the person shows up at the polls on Election day, I have proof that I tried to contact them for the correct information.

So we have

a) joes assertion that the ID card will be returned with no ID is false. As stated it will be held until the followup is done as per 25 Pa C. S 1328
b) joes assertion that no checking will be done is false, as evidenced by the SURE system set in place by HAVA (which I mentioned in the ORIGINAL post on CSB) and authority set by 25 Pa C.S 1328
c) my assertion that if Joe did try and register as he said he could, he would be rejected as ineliglible is demonstrated true. (which in plan b speak is 'suborning perjury' )
d) unasserted or tested, but since 25 Pa. C.S. 1328 allowed for signature verification, typical followon documents like utility bills will obviously not suffice.

Conclusions:
a) joe is an asshole
b) joe does not know what he is talking about, even when you spot him the data
c) joe cannot correctly even make up evidence
d) not even govt officials will respond to joe except mr Wagstaffe

[Joe Guy]

So we have

a) joes assertion that the ID card will be returned with no ID is false. As stated it will be held until the followup is done as per 25 Pa C. S 1328

What I actually wrote was that you will receive a card but you won't be able to vote until you provide an ID, which includes non-photo ID's like bank statements and utility bills. I actually called the number Lord Jim gave and was told about receiving the card. I had a couple communications by email (which I will cut & paste below) and thought a phone call might be the best way to get a direct answer. I was actually shocked when I was told the card would be mailed within two weeks. I expected that the registrant would get a request from the registrar to remail the application and include an ID.

Even if they didn't mail the card first, the result is the same. An SSN is not required to register in Pennsylvania and they will accept a bank statement or utility bill. My guess is that the logic behind that is that you would have been required to have an SSN in order to open a bank account or set up utility services. However, I expect that even you know there are ways around that.

b) joes assertion that no checking will be done is false, as evidenced by the SURE system set in place by HAVA (which I mentioned in the ORIGINAL post on CSB) and authority set by 25 Pa C.S 1328

If you can show me where I wrote that no checking will be done, I'll admit to being wrong about that. When did I write that?

c) my assertion that if Joe did try and register as he said he could, he would be rejected as ineliglible is demonstrated true. (which in plan b speak is 'suborning perjury' )

That's another lie. I never said I would or could register to vote in Pennsylvania. The truth is that you urged me to do it and I refused.

d) unasserted or tested, but since 25 Pa. C.S. 1328 allowed for signature verification, typical followon documents like utility bills will obviously not suffice.

If you read the following communications, you will see that I was informed that a utility bill etc would suffice.

Conclusion:

The fact is that Pennsylvania's voter registration is not any more secure than California's. And the truth is once again proved that a voter registration card - even in Pennsylvania - is not acceptable proof of citizenship, which is what I set out to prove in the first place.

Here's the correspondence I had with them...

Me - I have a question regarding the application for voter registration. If a person doesn't have a drivers license or Social Security Number and checks the box on the voter registration application to indicate that, will the registration be accepted or will more information be required?

Thanks in advance.

ST, VOTERREG

TO:'Joe Guy'

Monday, January 9, 2012 8:48 AM

Are you a US Citizen?

Me - Please let me clarify. This is a hypothetical question. I am in California and I'm trying to find out if your voter registration process is the same as ours. In California you can get a voter registration card without an SSN or Driver's license. This doesn't give you the ability to vote, but does get you a card that will later need to be validated.

I was having an internet discussion with a person from your state and he claimed that Pennsylvania has far stricter rules regarding registering to vote than we do in California. While researching the subject I could find no difference in the process between our two states.

So, it is a hypothetical question when I ask if an 18 yr old legal citizen without a driver's license or SSN would be able to obtain a voter registration card.

Thank you for your time.


FROM: ST, VOTERREG

TO: 'Joe Guy'

Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:18 AM

If they don’t have an ID, they will need to prove some sort of residency in PA, if they don’t have a driver’s license, they usually have a State ID Card. They would need acceptable form of identification….O

“All voters who appear at a polling place for the first time must show proof of identification. Approved forms of photo identification include:

Pennsylvania driver’s license or PennDOT ID card
ID issued by any Commonwealth agency
ID issued by the U.S. Government
U.S. passport
U.S. Armed Forces ID
Student ID
Employee ID

If you do not have a photo ID, you can use a non-photo identification that includes your name and address. Approved forms of non-photo identification include:

Confirmation issued by the County Voter Registration Office
Non-photo ID issued by the Commonwealth
Non-photo ID issued by the U.S. Government
Firearm permit
Current utility bill
Current bank statement
Current paycheck
Government check”

So, my question once again to you quad is this; Do you believe that a Pennsylvania Voter Registration Card is acceptable proof of citizenship for a person to get a Social Security Card, for example?

Of course I don't expect you to answer, since I've asked this question more than a few times and the only response I've gotten is that you want people to believe that I'm a homophobic homosexual pedophile.

[Lord Jim]

Well that seems pretty straight forward...

The truth is that you can get a voter registration card in Pennsylvania as easily as in California, (without any form of identification being provided) but that a minimal proof of residency, like a utility bill, (but NOT a proof of citizenship ) is theoretically required the first time you vote.

Therefore, returning to the central question, a Pennsylvania voter registration card is every bit as useless as a proof of citizenship as a California voter registration card.

(However this is all pointless of course Joe, because Quad will now undoubtedly accuse you of making up the response you received, and assert, as he always does, that he has been absolutely 100% correct all along.)

[quaddriver]

Of couse the 'response' he claimed he got is made up. It came from no demonstrable person.

Apparently the part was missed where the person who actually works for the registration commission said there will be NO card returned unless Id is made. and upon going to the polling place, it is held to prove you did not comply and are therefore ineligible. And 25 Pa CS 1328 clearly states a signature verification must be done.

Subsection (a) delegates to each commission the decision for accepting or rejecting applications, in accordance with 25 Pa.C.S. § 1222(c)(9). The procedures for verifying the signatures of each registrant are set forth in subsection (b), while subsection (c) provides that a commission shall use reasonable efforts to ascertain any information that is incomplete, inconsistent or unclear on an applicant's application form.

no utility bill or bank statement will have this.

which proves you did not actually send an email but instead copy, pasted and paraphrased what you thought were correct responses from a website.

the person I spoke to, ms Moore, is indeed the duly appointed registrar for the county in which I live. Has a valid email and responds in a timely fashion with words consistent with the statute. If you had actually spoken to *any* person, they would have referenced the statute. the purpose of the statue is the SURE 'system' lookitup, which would mandate a uniform response. the reponse you 'claim' to have gotten is not consistent with applicable law, therefore deemed false.

as for acceptable proofs of ID, i posted more than once a link to the federal document listing what is acceptable or not. Casual readers of that link note that voter registration cards issued after the 2002 HAVA are listed in section B as I stated. no more, no less.

[Joe Guy]

Of couse the 'response' he claimed he got is made up. It came from no demonstrable person.

Lord Jim has once again predicted a quad response...

quad, give me an email address and I'll forward the email to you. Or if you're afraid to reveal your email address, send your own question to ST-VOTERREG@pa.gov.

It will prove that I didn't lie and that you can't accept the truth.

[Joe Guy]

as for acceptable proofs of ID, i posted more than once a link to the federal document listing what is acceptable or not. Casual readers of that link note that voter registration cards issued after the 2002 HAVA are listed in section B as I stated. no more, no less.

You're never going to answer a question directly, quad, I wonder why that is?

Your above statement proves, as I've stated all along, that a voter registration is not acceptable proof of citizenship, which was your original claim.

btw quad, where's the link to our original discussion that Garaelb sent you? You know, the one you were going to post that was going to prove something?

Is it with the forgery complaint you made at work that you promised to cut & paste for us to read?

Or with the proof that I challenged Harry the cop to find me and he did? (that one's just plain weird)

[quaddriver]

You already know my email address as you have claimed. you already know my home address as you have claimed. And even if you do not, its published. Even here.

I note that you ignore the langauge in the statute that the registrar has addressed in her response to me. It contradicts what you have posted. Of course, you may ask her yourself. Her email is also published online.

The point being, should a person attempt to register without either form of ID, the application will be held up and no card returned until complied with. If the person shows up on election day and has not complied, they will be turned away with ample evidence to back said decision. this information comes from a PA registrar. To refute it, one would have to find a PA registrar who answers differently. You have not provided such evidence. I doubt any PA registrar would answer in clear violation of law.

You also do not deny that the link to federal documents I gave, does in fact list voter registration cards in section B. There is no text written by me in existence that states otherwise or anything extraneous on the topic.

Until proven otherwise, which you have failed to do to date, end of discussion.

[quaddriver]

I am never going to answer a question on something I never said.

Your above statement proves, as I've stated all along, that a voter registration is not acceptable proof of citizenship, which was your original claim.

No it was not. I said it was an accepted form under part B of a link I gave, which you read and therefore agree is in there.

btw quad, where's the link to our original discussion that Garaelb sent you? You know, the one you were going to post that was going to prove something?

gar has not restored this as of yet, promises notwithstanding.

Is it with the forgery complaint you made at work that you promised to cut & paste for us to read?

I made no such claim. what I did claim was covered in depth at the CSB and this will be restored as well.

Or with the proof that I challenged Harry the cop to find me and he did? (that one's just plain weird)

Old texts from car talk are no longer accesible. but harry is. As are any findings he made which would have been presented where they were to be presented. You *really* should be preparing for something else. And you really should not use the web when logged into your machine as an admin. You give up way way too much.

[Rick]

I see this has gone on for 4 pages so far.

I gotta ask, am I the only one that has to show proof that I am who I say I am and then sign in before I am able to vote?

[quaddriver]

I see this has gone on for 4 pages so far.

I gotta ask, am I the only one that has to show proof that I am who I say I am and then sign in before I am able to vote?

only you and I. Apparently the other posters can just show up in any state and cast ballots.

[Guinevere]

I've been a registered voter in Maryland, Vermont, and Massachusetts. I have never had to show ID to vote - only check in with my address.

[Joe Guy]

You already know my email address as you have claimed. you already know my home address as you have claimed. And even if you do not, its published. Even here.

Care to show me where I claimed to have your email address? I looked in your profile and could not find an email address for you. It's obvious that you won't accept the truth, so why allow me to send you anything - right?

I note that you ignore the langauge in the statute that the registrar has addressed in her response to me. It contradicts what you have posted. Of course, you may ask her yourself. Her email is also published online.

There is not much difference from the alleged response you got than the one I got. The only difference is that I was told a card would be mailed first. If that was incorrect, it doesn't change anything.

The point being, should a person attempt to register without either form of ID, the application will be held up and no card returned until complied with. If the person shows up on election day and has not complied, they will be turned away with ample evidence to back said decision.

A person who applies for a voter registration card and provides a non photo ID will get a valid card and have the ability to vote. At best, that card would be acceptable locally as proof of residency.

You also do not deny that the link to federal documents I gave, does in fact list voter registration cards in section B. There is no text written by me in existence that states otherwise or anything extraneous on the topic.

That is your big lie. You claimed that a voter registration card is acceptable ID of citizenship. You said it was because of the process that you needed to go through to get one. At the time you were bragging about having recently received an ID of some sort. It might have even been a new voter registration card, I don't remember.

You want to end this discussion because your lies have caught up to you. Do you notice how nobody who has participated in this thread believes you?

Do you wonder why that is?

I'll tell you why I'm not letting this go too soon. In this thread you have accused me of being a pedophile and you've also written the following;

...like I said a few weeks ago, your downfall is coming and I will announce if gleefully and joyfully everywhere I can. You unwittingly accelerated the process. You have some very uncomy questions to answer soon and I for one am glad. So are a bunch of parents.

Explain the "downfall" that I have coming.

Better yet, be a man and apologize for making those things up.

(no coherent response expected)

[Rick]

I've been a registered voter in Maryland, Vermont, and Massachusetts. I have never had to show ID to vote - only check in with my address.

Hmmm, so someone could go to MD, VT, & MA provide an address in any and all voting districts and vote in every district (not to be confused with every precinct in every district although I guess if one provided a new address every time)?

Interesting...

[Lord Jim]

I've been a registered voter in Maryland, Vermont, and Massachusetts. I have never had to show ID to vote - only check in with my address.

That's been my experience in Virginia, Florida, and California.

I gotta ask, am I the only one that has to show proof that I am who I say I am and then sign in before I am able to vote?

That's just because you have a shifty and dishonest look to you Keld....

People naturally assume that you're up to no good...

[Rick]

That's just because you have a shifty and dishonest look to you Keld....

People naturally assume that you're up to no good...

Must is, cause must ain't just don't sound right...