Lord Jim wrote:I guess they figured that having him go as far as he did would help in terms of proving the seriousness of his intent...
Strop, suppose this scenario had unfolded:
Suppose this guy had come to the attention of the FBI; a guy who was expressing a desire to blow up Americans in a suicide bombing....
And rather than do what they did, and test to see whether he was serious and then once he proved that he was, arresting him....
They had followed your suggestion, and said, "Okay his visa's expired. Let's just put him on a one way flight to Morocco"....
And then a year later, in Paris, the guy walks into the crowded lobby of a hotel or restaurant known to be popular with Americans, where he either opens up with a machine gun or blows himself up, killing 40-50 people...
Can you imagine the hue and cry that would arise (quite justifiably in my view; I'd be joining it) if it came to light that this guy had been in the US, and that US authorities were aware that he had expressed an intent to do something like this, and all they did was deport him?
There'd be so many heads rolling at the J.Edgar Hoover Building, the place would look like a macabre bowling alley....
People would be outraged; there'd be Congressional investigations up the wazoo....
Lots of supposition there Jim!
Just suppose he was yet another delusional oaf, with less chance of organising a suicide bombing than I have of being invited to take my pick at the playboy mansion, and the FBI concocted this whole pantomime just to win funds and glory, should heads not roll in equal numbers to your scenario?
I think my crystal ball gazing is the most likely scenario.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Allowing the individual to carry out additional steps in furtherance of the crime increases the government's ability to meet its very high burden (beyond a reasonable doubt) at trial.
I also would prefer to see such individuals incarcerated, rather than deported to a place where they can further their intentions to kill Americans.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
bigskygal wrote:
Increasing the ability of the individual to carry out additional steps in furtherance of the crime increases the government's ability to run around yelling "We caught a guy in a suicide vest just outside the Whitehouse!"
\
Fixed that for you
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
It was the US Capitol building, and given the abysmally low approval rating enjoyed by Congress, such a headline doesn't garner many kudos for the FBI, I'm guessing.
In all seriousness, your position is absurd, in light of the legal realities. I do hope you understand that and are just being facetious.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
It was the US Capitol building, and given the abysmally low approval rating enjoyed by Congress, such a headline doesn't garner many kudos for the FBI, I'm guessing.
Now that there is funny...
Sometimes it seems as though one has to cross the line just to figger out where it is
bigskygal wrote:
In all seriousness, your position is absurd, in light of the legal realities. I do hope you understand that and are just being facetious.
Nope, I'm serious. I can see no reason on earth why the pantomime of dressing this guy up in a fake suicide vest, then arresting him in a garage, had to be done.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Lord Jim wrote:
Sources say as the suspect continued contact with the undercover agents, his plans became more ambitious, and he eventually decided to become the first terrorist suicide bomber on US soil.
One can only wonder why....
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
the FBI concocted this whole pantomime just to win funds and glory, should heads not roll in equal numbers to your scenario?
I think my crystal ball gazing is the most likely scenario....
I'm sorry Strop, but your position just strikes me as naive on the one hand, and Steveishly paranoid on the other...
I believe to do what you suggest would have been criminal irresponsibility on the part of the FBI, given what they had learned about this guy. The proper thing to do is exactly what they did; find out serious the guy was, find out how far he was willing to go, and then nab him with sufficient evidence to, (as BSG points out) meet their legal burden.
Lord Jim wrote:
I believe to do what you suggest would have been criminal irresponsibility on the part of the FBI,
That's their tradmark, right?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Over the next year, FBI agents, detectives from the U.S. Capitol Police, and other investigators from the sprawling Joint Terrorism Task Force that covers the National Capitol Region, kept close tabs on El Khalifi. El Khalifi allegedly kept discussing his desires to launch a terrorist attack. The investigators kept gathering intelligence. A major gap that needed to be closed was whether El Khalifi was connected with any overseas group. Was he part of a wider network? If we move in on him now, investigators wondered, will we miss people in the shadows who might strike later?
Over the course of the next several months, two things became to clear to the Joint Terrorism Task Force investigators and their FBI bosses:
One, that Khalifi was acting alone -- one of dozens of suspects who have sought to launch attacks on U.S. soil in the decade since 9/11.
The other thing that became increasingly clear to the agents and detectives was that El Khalifi was determined to move forward.
Last edited by Rick on Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sometimes it seems as though one has to cross the line just to figger out where it is
Khalifi stayed illegally, never applying for citizenship; he flew under the radar of law enforcement and immigration officials until the early days of 2011
Ok, that's not good...
years old, listened as another man said, "The war on terror is a war on Muslims."
El Khalifi allegedly kept discussing his desires to launch a terrorist attack
Other persons not named, suspects? or FBI agents?
Over the course of the next several months, two things became to clear to the Joint Terrorism Task Force investigators and their FBI bosses: One, that Khalifi was acting alone -- one of dozens of suspects who have sought to launch attacks on U.S. soil in the decade since 9/11.The other thing that became increasingly clear to the agents and detectives was that El Khalifi was determined to move forward.
So they let him?
By the following December, they had introduced El Khalifi to "Hussein," who was cooperating with the FBI. On Dec. 1, 2011, "Hussein" drove El Khalifi to Baltimore to meet with a shadowy figure named Yusuf. Hussein told El Khalifi that Yusuf was a man who could help him realize his goal: To attack America. Yusuf claimed to be from al Qaeda, but was actually an undercover officer working for the JTTF. He talked with El Khalifi for months about El Khalifi's alleged plans.
Ok...That's now entered the realm of pantomime...
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Over the next year, FBI agents, detectives from the U.S. Capitol Police, and other investigators from the sprawling Joint Terrorism Task Force that covers the National Capitol Region, kept close tabs on El Khalifi. El Khalifi allegedly kept discussing his desires to launch a terrorist attack. The investigators kept gathering intelligence. A major gap that needed to be closed was whether El Khalifi was connected with any overseas group. Was he part of a wider network? If we move in on him now, investigators wondered, will we miss people in the shadows who might strike later?
Over the course of the next several months, two things became to clear to the Joint Terrorism Task Force investigators and their FBI bosses:
One, that Khalifi was acting alone -- one of dozens of suspects who have sought to launch attacks on U.S. soil in the decade since 9/11.
The other thing that became increasingly clear to the agents and detectives was that El Khalifi was determined to move forward.
Sometimes it seems as though one has to cross the line just to figger out where it is
El Khalifi watched as the man produced an AK-47 rifle, two revolvers and ammunition, and discussed what the group needed to do to be ready to fight back.
El Khalifi allegedly kept discussing his desires to launch a terrorist attack
So all of this was a set up by the FBI!
Over the course of the next several months, two things became to clear to the Joint Terrorism Task Force investigators and their FBI bosses:
One, that Khalifi was acting alone
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
I know they are, but pantomime is a bit out of their league...
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
No; I'm saying they took the whole thing into the realms of silliness by supplying him with a false suicide vest and deactivated gun, then sending him off on a "mission" before subsequently arresting him. The only reason for this I can see is that they needed the proof that he would actually go through with his threats.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Yep, but did they really need to go to those lengths to get a conviction?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
