IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

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Lord Jim
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by Lord Jim »

I see that Gwen now has a second listing at the CSB that officially enshrines her as "Administrator"....

Gee, that's a step in the right direction.... :roll:

She appears to still have her original handle too....

I guess this is so people will be able to distinguish between when "Gwenhwyvar the poster" is being smarmy, arrogant, disingenuous and condescending....

As opposed to when "Gwen the Admin" is being smarmy, arrogant, disingenuous and condescending....


Most helpful.
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Lord Jim
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by Lord Jim »

I agree with Hen...I also really cared about that place, and where it was headed. (I finally concluded I cared too much)

Even up until a few days ago, I was seriously considering either emailing Gar myself, or (despite having said I wouldn't) posting in that thread...

But it's become glaringly apparent, (and becomes more so with each passing day) that Gar has so completely got the wrong end of the stick on this, there's no point really in trying to communicate anything to him about it.

His starting point should have been to ask himself this question:

"What has gone so seriously wrong with the CSB, that a whole other board has been created that has attracted over 6000 posts in over 600 topics from more than 30 longtime CSB posters in just two months? Activity that would have been on my board, if whatever went so wrong hadn't happened? What caused this, and how can I try to fix it?"

But he obviously didn't do that; or he would have taken an entirely different course from the "we need a new shade of lipstick and some new eye shadow" approach....

One example:

Instead of crowing about the "buddy button", (which frankly just makes him look silly) how about announcing that he was overruling the fiat Gwen imposed over the expressed will of the vast majority of the CSB membership, and restoring a post editing time limit of no less than 24 hours? That would have been a sign to some extent at least that he "gets it" and a symbolic step in the right direction. That would have demonstrated that his assertion that "I have always said that this is "your" board" actually meant something; given the course he's decided to follow they are nothing but empty words.

ETA:

Another thing that gets me... REALLY gets me...

Is the way Steve keeps pontificating about how the CSB is the "true" free speech board while at the same time gushing about how much more "peaceful" the place is now....It was all I could do to restrain myself from jumping in and posting this:

Earth to Lunatic:

The reason the place is so much more "peaceful" is because so many people have left that your paranoid idiocy is now allowed to run free, almost completely unchallenged. The reason the place is so "peaceful" is because so many people have now taken their "free speech" elsewhere. The reason the place is so "peaceful", ya friggin' mo-ron, is because so many people have given up on the CSB as a "free speech" forum.
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Gimcrack
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by Gimcrack »

My opinion regarding the CSB:
I was one of the first posters over there, after having my hands slapped by Wendy for sticking up for someone. I can't remember who anymore, but I was happy to follow Gar to an open board. Back then, DAR and another board were my fixes. That other board was becoming very cloistered and just not my groove. The CSB was like a rainbow of Skittles, delivered by cotton candy unicorns. It was fun, it had real people, it had opinions that (while I may not have agreed with) were pretty well thought out. People didn't attack each other for shits and giggles.

Unfortunately, I got too caught up in some personal shit and left. [Aside: For those who were involved in that shit - I apologize]

When I came back as Gimcrack the place had changed. I never particularly liked Edi, but damn did he become even more obnoxious. I felt like I was in high school again, with Gwen and Edi the self-appointed BMOCs and the rest of us were there just to please them. Every thread I read degenerated into a pissing match with random shit from other threads thrown in. I couldn't follow some threads - for fuck's sake a thread about the sky being blue would end up with comments on peoples' sex lives, random Steve comments that had no basis in anyones' reality, attempts to get the topic back on track would cause nuclear fucking meltdowns... it again became too much for me.

I would check in every few months or so to see if anything had changed... nope. Still stupid shit.

We all know some boards evolve, some devolve. The CSB has been rotting away like a corpse in the attic for a few years. I believe it's too late to spray some air freshener and put a rug on it, thinking it would make it all better. It's a shame.
Where am I, and why am I holding a handbasket?

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tyro
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by tyro »

I see that Gwen now has a second listing at the CSB that officially enshrines her as "Administrator"....
I should point out that the nic of Gwen as an administrator has been active for some time. I was as surprised as anyone when just recently she actually posted with it. You could easily check the Members list and find that she created the account on Feb 5th 2009.

Point being is that it isn’t new and doesn’t indicate some recent leverage.


...that Gar has so completely got the wrong end of the stick on this, there's no point really in trying to communicate anything to him about it.
I have had some e-mail and one phone call with him. It is apparent to me that he is having some difficulty in assimilating all of the diverging calls for this and that. If you saw his last post in Rants and Raves, you might get a hint of where his mind has been and where he is putting some of the blame.

Do you remember the movie “The Caine Mutiny”? If you do you should think about the ending where the lawyer gets them off and then gives them a piece of his mind about their neglected role in making things work right.

In the spirit of that final scene, I remind all of us that we all had our hand in bringing it to where it is now.

The real question is do we want to keep this stuff up, or do we want to make it work?
A sufficiently copious dose of bombast drenched in verbose writing is lethal to the truth.

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The Hen
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by The Hen »

I certainly want to make this work!
Bah!

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The Hen
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by The Hen »

When I rejoined the CSB it was simply to get it back to jumping the way it USED to jump.

Way back when people would have fun and it wasn't a pain to open threads as you weren't necessarily going to be attacked for your previous posting.

After 5 months of trying to get the Board back to where it was, it proved too much for me.

Why should I bother wasting time on a Board where Admins do not listen and unsubstantiated claims by other posters are not rejected by the Board?

Nothing seems to have changed.

I still have a number of questions unanswered and unsubstantiated attacks occur just about any time I post.

What stuff is to keep up other than my participation where I am happy?
Bah!

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Lord Jim
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by Lord Jim »

I should point out that the nic of Gwen as an administrator has been active for some time. I was as surprised as anyone when just recently she actually posted with it. You could easily check the Members list and find that she created the account on Feb 5th 2009.
That's interesting....

I didn't know that....

A logical guess would be that her sudden decision to use it now would be her passive aggressive way of sticking her thumb in the eye of those who have seen her behavior as the core of the problem, as if to say, "I'm still in charge...nyah, nyah na nyah nyah..."
Do you remember the movie “The Caine Mutiny”? If you do you should think about the ending where the lawyer gets them off and then gives them a piece of his mind about their neglected role in making things work right.
Yeah, well, I also remember that Maryk was a reluctant conspirator who was finally driven to mutiny by Queeg's clearly reckless behavior.

I also remember that he was acquitted. (And that he saved the ship.)
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tyro
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by tyro »

I haven’t given up on the CSB, but I do fully empathize with your points. Lets face it, as of late Steve is lashing into everyone that he thinks is disloyal to Gwen. Steve lashing out at people isn’t new either, but he is just one (at most) man.

The CSB doesn’t belong to him any more than it belonged to jay or Mediator(some number here). He is simply another asshole in a never ending sequence of assholes and we would be better off learning how to deal with assholes because the day will come when one or more will drop in here.

I like this place too. It reminds me of those early days that hooked me to the CSB. I don’t want to see this place die either.

But the two boards could co-exist.

My point was that it really is in our collective capacity to take/let either board go with the assholes, or not. Did we learn anything?
A sufficiently copious dose of bombast drenched in verbose writing is lethal to the truth.

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Gob
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by Gob »

On Edi's return to the board I PM'd Jim and said (words along the lines of) "watch this place become "all MOTU all the time,"" I didn't realise then how much more than that it would become.

I didn't realise how far off the rails Steve would go. Couple that with Edi's continuous lying and Gwen's complicity in making the board Edi's playground (hey lets link up to some political blogs) and you had a certain recipe for a one track board.

Edi's grip on sanity when dealing with board issues seems somewhat suspect too; "You've created 400 sock puppets to make twenty votes proving that I am fascinated with Gob's sex life", being a classic.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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tyro
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by tyro »

Ok. I missed the count on the number of assholes running amuck

But my point remains.
.
Is it us or is it them.
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Gob
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by Gob »

It's us if we're with them, and them if they are with us...
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Timster
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by Timster »

See above tyro.

[Edited to ADD.]

Ok. That was a bit vague. What I meant to say is that I personally accept any and all responsibility for my own asshollery / douchbaggery . Ok?

However. That does not even come close to addressing the systemic degradation that has allowed the CSB to become what it is in its current state.

Jim I think nailed it. And the success of the Plan B has sealed it.

I know and understand that you want to maintain some sort of mutual affection. [SO DOES HE ...ed.] And what you have stated is very true.

I would like to see some sort of ASCII truth to be reveled myself. And I applaud your attempt to keep the peace.

But I think at this point? You are attempting to close the barn door long after that horse has gone to pasture.

Hey. No harm in trying.

That is no longer your father's Free Speech Forum.

Just saying.

Peace.
Last edited by Timster on Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Guy
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by Joe Guy »

Steve has a serious mental problem.

He often writes that he is out there talking to Americans every day and that is why he has such insight into the problems we Americans have - and (in his mind) since nobody else here has that insight, he is a completely misunderstood person who is the only one who really understands anything to do with our economy, war or whatever.

I can only imagine the conversations that he has with people on a typical day...

Steve - "We're all being screwed by our lying sack of government conspirators."

Other person - "You're exactly right. Now would you please take a minute to replace that service panel for me."

And of course he is supported by the Gwenabler.

It's like watching South Park.

Sick but funny.

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The Hen
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by The Hen »

tyro wrote:I haven’t given up on the CSB, but I do fully empathize with your points. Lets face it, as of late Steve is lashing into everyone that he thinks is disloyal to Gwen. Steve lashing out at people isn’t new either, but he is just one (at most) man.

The CSB doesn’t belong to him any more than it belonged to jay or Mediator(some number here). He is simply another asshole in a never ending sequence of assholes and we would be better off learning how to deal with assholes because the day will come when one or more will drop in here.
The CSB no longer feels like 'our' Board. It hasn't for quite sometime. I have only felt at home there in one small period since rejoining in the posting. We all know when that period occurred. I was so pleased of the progress that was made in that time frame, I thought we ought to do a collection to ensure that Gwen wasn't using her own funds to keep theh Board going.

We all know how well that suggestino went doen. What a nasty Hen. Offering money to Gwen. I don't blame her for not speaking to me. I am a rotter.

: )
My point was that it really is in our collective capacity to take/let either board go with the assholes, or not. Did we learn anything?
I learnt a lot from my experience there.

I learnt that having multi-admins is a damn good idea for the entire membership.

I learnt that having an editing time frame longer than an hour isn't a big issue for the integrity of the Board.

I continue to watch and I continue to learn. I have learned that if you want to really know what members want on a Board, just ask.

I have also learnt that when you ask for input on how to improve things, it might be a good idea to enter into a discussion about that input instead of ignoring what you don't like and adding a shiny button.
Bah!

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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by loCAtek »

We don't know what he likes or doesn't like; he hasn't said so yet, except that he doesn't like the in-fighting.
Maybe he just doesn't understand himself, what a positive influence he is, and how his absence affects the atmosphere. Picking the wrong admin-type to hold the reins while he's gone, hasn't entirely been his fault either. I understand his choices were limited and he was on his fifth or sixth pick before he found one who would accept.

We all know Gar works slowly and erratically, and not always with a full box of crayons, but he did say to me, "The CSB is 'his baby'". I don't think neglecting it or abandoning it, is or ever was his intention.

Don't tell him I said this but... he is a geek :geek: ...and Geeks tweak. He came back and the first thing he wanted to do was tinker. You can't blame him for that, it's his nature. But he wanted to tinker amongst friends, and he's mentioned that, that the feud is frustrating to him. It's just not something he knows exactly how to tweak like he does code.

I think his frustration is showing ...and as his friends we should be supportive. We all want him to stay, don't we? Certainly, we know, it's not the CSB without him. He still doesn't have a lot of time to dedicate to the board with employment constraints and the like; give him some patience. LIfe is kicking his ass, and has been for some time now. Give the guy a break!

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Lord Jim
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by Lord Jim »

Picking the wrong admin-type to hold the reins while he's gone, hasn't entirely been his fault either.
No. But now that he's become re-engaged allowing that situation to continue would be.
I have only felt at home there in one small period since rejoining in the posting. We all know when that period occurred. I was so pleased of the progress that was made in that time frame
I remember that well. Some may recall that I worked very hard to try and bring that about, trying to use the good relationship I had with Gwen to gently and patiently keep her moving in the right direction on things like the board upgrade and the automated registration....

But as far as I was concerned, she tanked that almost immediately with her arbitrary decision on the editing time limit.

Yes, I took that very personally. Not only because it created a problem for me because of the way I post, (posting quickly and then coming back later and correcting misspellings, typo's. typing the same word twice, etc. I make a lot of these types of mistakes, especially in longer posts) but also because of the fact that she lied to me for over a week during which time she kept assuring me that it was a glitch that she would fix as soon as she had the time to do it. (In retrospect I no longer believe she was lying to me about that; I think she fully intended to fix it when she initially told me she would, and was persuaded not to by her buddies behind the scenes...definitive proof that she was now definitely allowing her personal friendships affect her decisions as admin.)

But it soon went far beyond the personal level. First, it was an insult to every single poster on the board, because the decision presumed that every person there was dishonest enough to go back and make substantive changes in what they had said, when it was clear that neither she nor editec, (the only one applauding the decision...Steve wasn't posting at that point) had a single shred of evidence that anyone had ever done such a thing. (Indeed the only one's who's honesty was seriously in question was hers and that of her two buddies)

It was a "solution" to a completely non-existent problem that existed only in the paranoid minds of her two amigos, and she, in her role as admin had decided to yield to their wishes. Prior to this, despite the fact that I had accused her of being dishonest and even crazy in her defenses of Steve as a poster, I had on a number of occasions vociferously defended Gwen (much to the consternation of some) against the charge that she was allowing her personal likes and dislikes affect her decisions as admin (as had Joe Guy) because I simply didn't see any evidence of it. But this was incontrovertible, undeniable evidence to me that she had now crossed that line, and that was completely unacceptable as far as I was concerned.

She further completely showed her ass with her laughably ridiculous explanation that she had done it to somehow honor Gar's wishes. (She pulled this howler out of her butt just a couple of days after she had gone on at some length about how Gar had abandoned the board and she had ridden to the rescue)

But the absolute last straw for me came when we held a poll on the issue and the results overwhelmingly rejected her position, (I forget the exact vote, but I recall that going back to no editing time limit had the most votes, with a 24 hour limit closely behind, and her decision being supported by only a couple of votes) and her response was to say that her decision still stood, and that "being admin sometimes means doing things that are unpopular". (Of course that's also when editec started touting the sock puppets canard...An idea he cooked up because he had been handed his ass on a whole series of lopsided polls.)

That did it for me. That's when I changed my sig line and decided that as far as I was concerned, she had an attitude that was completely unsuited for the role she was in.

The appropriate thing for her to have said at that point would have been something like, "Well I disagree with this, but I'm clearly in the minority here. So since the the overwhelming consensus is for either a 24 hour limit or no limit, how about we set it at say, 48 or 72 hours?" And that would have been the end of the issue.

But instead, she had clearly decided to use this issue as an opportunity to say, "This ain't the members board, it's mine . I'm the boss here, and I'll run this place as I see fit, screw what any of you think. Anyone who doesn't like it can go fuck themselves." (Which by the oddest of coincidences, just happened to be the attitude editec was publicly calling for her to take.) In short, she used this issue to send the clear message that she was the dictator of the CSB. ("assisted" in her decision making process by Steve and editec..The bottom line is that a board run solely by Gwen in reality means a board run exclusively to please those two...personally I want no part of that. )

Now that she had "crossed the Rubicon" and clearly and publicly established the principle that she was the dictator, and that she and she alone would decide board policy, dropping all pretense that (in the absence of the board's owner) this was a board where the decision making process rested with the consensus of the membership, it was also clear to me that so long as she remained in sole control of the board it would just be a matter of time before she did it again...and again...and again...

This is why, (as I said earlier) I think it would be a really good symbolic thing for Gar to announce that in light of the clearly expressed collective view of the membership, he was lifting the one hour editing limit, and then to lift it. This would be a clear signal that he was serious about restoring his "our board" concept that Gwen so thoroughly trashed.
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by Guinevere »

I'm not going to rehash this, but it was more than just Steve and Edi who supported a shorter editing period. I've always been in favor of something like that, and I think there were a handful of others. You and I specifically discussed my perspective, LJ. That being said, I didn't like how Gwen handled the issue, nor did I like how those who were affronted by the change handled it either.

The problems always come back to the same point for me -- a code of civility would be a positive thing at this board, at the CSB, at any open un-moderated board. It's part of being a member of a community. And in fact the CSB does have something like that, in the agreement we all signed when we joined the board. If no one person is going to enforce that code, then its up to the members to enforce it upon themselves. Its too bad we all don't take more responsibility for what we post.
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tyro
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by tyro »

Garaelb has made it clear that he doesn’t have the time to see to all of the CSB’s administration needs, although I sense he will be more active now.

Whoever he might have asked to take over in his absence would necessarily be someone who would respect the values of the board that he had established.

There was a time some 5 or so years ago when the issue of how much time should be allowed to edit a post. Garaelb decided on 30 minutes (I think that is right). There was some outcry over that change but he defended it and made it stick.

If I was the sole administrator when the forum was upgraded and people demanded the edit time to be increased, I would have stood up for the decision Garaelb had made. To cede to popular demand would have been to turn my back on the basics that had been his, no different (maybe a bit different) then banning posters and personally editing other people’s post.

I had the opportunity to discuss this matter with him this same week and he is still of the opinion that 30 minutes is enough time.

So Gwen did the right thing, she just mishandled the opposition.


In addition, don’t wait for Garaelb to open up the edit time as some sign that the place is now under his management.
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Lord Jim
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by Lord Jim »

You're right Guin, I apologize, I do recall that was also your position, (I think it may have been Keld's as well)

I don't want to rehash the merits of it either; we all made our arguments about it quite thoroughly.

The bottom line though is, that at the end of the day a vote was held, and that position was defeated overwhelmingly, (for the record, had my position been defeated and the one hour limit embraced by the membership, I wouldn't have been happy about it, but I would have accepted it...just like I did when my position on the ignore button lost..."ya win some, ya lose some"...that's just the way it goes.You have to respect the majority decision) and Gwen decided to ignore this and arbitrarily impose her view anyway.

The issue involved where she decided to send the message that she was the dictator and what majority of the membership wanted didn't mean beans happened to be the editing time limit question, but it could have been anything....

The important issue here was not the editing time limit per se, but the principle involved, with Gwen deciding to make indisputably clear that she was El Caudillo . She just happened to pick this issue to send that message with.
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Lord Jim
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Re: IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

Post by Lord Jim »

In addition, don’t wait for Garaelb to open up the edit time as some sign that the place is now under his management.
Oh I certainly am not waiting for that. Gar's made quite clear from what I've seen him write publicly at least, that he thinks what the place needs is a new coat of paint. He does not appear to have any intention of addressing the fundamental problem of Gwen's sole management.

I disagree with pretty much everything you said in that post Tyro, but as I just said to Guin, I really don't see any point in rehashing the merits. Suffice it to say that the unlimited editing feature had been in place for years with no problems, and if in light of that fact, if Gar would have chosen to ignore the overwhelming view of the membership on the matter, (as Gwen did) then I guess the "our board" concept he talked about must not mean much to him either.
Last edited by Lord Jim on Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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