Sixty-Eight Years Ago

[Sue U]

You "can just imagine" it because it hasn't happened. (I "can just imagine" all kinds of things too -- like cries of "Socialism!" and "government takeover!" for adopting Mitt Fucking Romney's own healthcare policy, so most of the time I don't even have to work my brain that hard.) There will always be a tiny minority of people who object to those in public office -- or anywhere else, for that matter -- expressing any religious sentiment at all. But haven't you noticed that pretty much every president ends every address to the nation with "And God bless America"?

Americans like their leaders to be people of faith, particularly Christian faith. (Don't you remember that the Adams camp tried to smear Jefferson by calling him an atheist? And anti-Romney Republicans suggesting that his faith is un-Christian? Things haven't changed much.) If America were facing the type of (arguably) existential threat posed by the Axis, it would not be inappropriate for a leader to express that faith by asking for his/her god's assistance on behalf of the nation. It's not what I would personally prefer, but I don't have any serious objection to it; it's just not to my taste. It is not an establishment of religion or even close -- it is a personal expression. But apart from the rabid religious right, today's audiences like their religion more toned down, more inclusive, less preachy/churchy, so I don't think this is the kind of speech that would be made today, but mostly for aesthetic reasons. As I recall, George W. Bush frequently mentioned how he had prayed about this decision or that. I don't recall anyone caterwauling about that, either.

[BoSoxGal]

Invoking Christianity to that degree when going to war against the largely Christian Axis powers (those 'other' Japs didn't count), most of which were countries from which the great majority of Americans had emigrated, is a far different thing politically than invoking Christianity when invading middle eastern, largely Muslim countries invoking memories of the Crusades.

Surely anybody who is paying attention can figure that out. We had friends in the middle east we needed to not alienate, for pity's sake.

[dales]

largely Christian Axis powers

In name only, in name only.............



"God Wth Us" - - - - Wermacht belt buckle

[Lord Jim]

Sue, in case it isn't, I'd like to make clear what I am talking about, and what I'm not talking about , and what I see as the issue here.

Americans like their leaders to be people of faith

Oh, I absolutely agree with that....

The overwhelming majority of Americans would have absolutely no problem whatsoever with a President giving a speech similar to FDR's today....

But then, 65% of Americans support allowing prayer in public schools,(http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... ic_schools) and 83 percent of Americans believe displays of Christmas symbols should be allowed on government property, and 74 percent of Americans s believe it is proper to display the Ten Commandments in government buildings, (http://www.pewforum.org/Church-State-La ... ourts.aspx) and I'm sure an overwhelming majority support other expressions of religiosity that you would likely view unfavorably.

I am absolutely not suggesting that average Americans are the ones who be doing the caterwauling...

No, that would come from the liberal mainstream press and punditry, as well as those who earn a living by being offended by religiosity in the public square....

The former would do everything they could to give the later a platform and inflate the importance of their concerns in the hopes of getting average Americans to view a speech like this unfavorably; (however as with every other effort they have made to try to get average Americans to embrace the same anti-religious views that they hold, they would almost certainly fail.)

I doubt they would go so far as to say the speech some how violated the Constitution; no, they would say things like "some have been troubled by the speech" or "many have expressed discomfort" or that "some" (generally not identifying who these "some" or "many" are of course) "considered the speech divisive" or "thought there was too much emphasis on religion", "the speech has provoked concern in some quarters" etc., etc., (Gee I can practically hear Andrea Mitchell saying those things as I type this)

There would be in-depth pieces on the president's overall religious views...he would find himself being asked about the "appropriateness" at press conferences...The New York Times would tut-tut about it editorially....

Just look at all the sneering and criticism that George W. Bush got from that bunch just for saying that he considered Jesus Christ to be his "favorite philosopher"; that's small potatoes on the religiosity scale compared to FDR's speech.

George W. Bush frequently mentioned how he had prayed about this decision or that.

Oh come on, that comparison is silly; this speech was many orders of magnitude a greater and purer expression of religiosity....

You can't compare this speech to a President saying he "prayed about a decision" or talking about the importance of his faith, or closing an otherwise secular speech with "God bless you and God bless the United States Of America" or any other tangential or perfunctory Presidential expression of religiosity.

That's comparing cherries and water melons....

To illustrate this point I think it might be useful to re-post FDR's speech in it's entirety:

My Fellow Americans:

Last night, when I spoke with you about the fall of Rome, I knew at that moment that troops of the United States and our Allies were crossing the Channel in another and greater operation. It has come to pass with success thus far.

And so, in this poignant hour, I ask you to join with me in prayer:

Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity.

Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith.

They will need Thy blessings. Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph.

They will be sore tried, by night and by day, without rest -- until the victory is won. The darkness will be rent by noise and flame. Men's souls will be shaken with the violences of war.

For these men are lately drawn from the ways of peace. They fight not for the lust of conquest. They fight to end conquest. They fight to liberate. They fight to let justice arise, and tolerance and goodwill among all Thy people. They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home.

Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, Thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom.

And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters, and brothers of brave men overseas, whose thoughts and prayers are ever with them -- help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice.

Many people have urged that I call the nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a continuance of prayer. As we rise to each new day, and again when each day is spent, let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts.

Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our armed forces.

And let our hearts be stout, to wait out the long travail, to bear sorrows that may come, to impart our courage unto our sons wheresoever they may be.

And, O Lord, give us faith. Give us faith in Thee; faith in our sons; faith in each other; faith in our united crusade. Let not the keeness of our spirit ever be dulled. Let not the impacts of temporary events, of temporal matters of but fleeting moment -- let not these deter us in our unconquerable purpose.

With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogances. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace -- a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all of men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil.

Thy will be done, Almighty God.

Amen.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt - June 6, 1944

This first paragraph:

Last night, when I spoke with you about the fall of Rome, I knew at that moment that troops of the United States and our Allies were crossing the Channel in another and greater operation. It has come to pass with success thus far.

Encapsulates all the actual "news" in this address. That's it. Just those two sentences. Everything else in this speech is an appeal to God....Every bit of it.

And he even ends the speech with "Amen"...

And you want to compare that to a President saying in an interview that he prays about decisions he makes?

Please.

The same folks who were in a snit over George W. Bush's "Jesus is my favorite philosopher" statement would be positively apoplectic if a President today made a speech with the level of religiosity that FDR expressed.

[Lord Jim]

Thanks Dale...

Now you've invited rube to re-post that idiocy about how the Nazi's were Christians....

[MajGenl.Meade]

Nazis. Nazis

[Lord Jim]

Lifes too short to worry about the proper placement of apostrophes....

[dales]

Nazis. Nazis

"YOU'LL GET YOUR IRON CROSS, VON RYAN"

One of my all time fave films.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Lifes too short to worry about the proper placement of apostrophe's....

Fixed