There is no 'placebo effect' in physics.

[rubato]

No matter how many times Republicans click their heels together three times and say "science is bunk", global warming and sea level rise continues:


Today's chapter "coefficient of expansion". When I'm choosing what size flask to use for a chemical reaction I have to take expansion into account. A flask which is the right size at RT might be too small when the solution is heated up; once I had to stop a reaction and change flasks because by 90C the liquid was up to the necks of the flask (and heating was to continue to 130C).

___________________________
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podca ... f-12-06-24

Warming Oceans Will Follow Laws of Physics

Warmer waters mean higher sea levels, but how high? David Biello reports

Are We Pushing the Planet to the Brink of Irreversible Environmental Change?
6/10/12


You can't hold back the tide. Or sea level rise. There’s melting ice, of course. But H2O that’s already liquid expands as it warms—and the oceans are warming from climate change.

That sea level rise isn't the same everywhere. The moon's pull, oceanic currents, the Earth's rotation—these all play a role in what ocean water is where. Turns out the U.S. East Coast is experiencing sea level rise three to four times higher than the global average, according to a study from the U.S. Geological Survey in the journal Nature Climate Change. (Scientific American is part of Nature Publishing Group.)

That's bad news for the highly populated region and suggests storm surges are going to prove ever more problematic from New York City to Cape Hatteras.

By the end of this century, greenhouse gases in the atmosphere could produce sea level rise of as much as 80 centimeters along the East Coast. Further into the future, even a low emissions scenario sees the seas rise by a meter and a half and if we continue emitting at our present pace sea level rise might be close to three meters—and still rising. No matter what some folks choose to believe.

—David Biello
_______________________________


yrs,
rubato

[dgs49]

Wait a second. Water doesn't expand when it gets warm. The vapor pressure increases, but the volume stays the same. In fact, when water freezes (chrystalizes) the volume increases by about 20%, which is why ice floats (4/5 below the surface, as they say).

Melting ice in water will not cause the volume to increase (or the seas to rise). If ice slides off dry land into the ocean, that can cause the seas to rise, however, if the air temperature is rising, the rate of evaporation will also rise - more clouds, more rain.

Anyone doing 15 minutes of research on the subject will quickly learn that much of the data supporting global surface temperature increases is very suspect - significantly impacted by the positioning of the monitoring stations near heavily populated areas. Clearly, many of the people accumulating this data have a transparent agenda which I will not bother to articulate.

But even if the temperatures are rising and the seas will rise, the CREDIBLE estimates are on the order of a couple of inches over the next century, which will have a minimal impact on human activity. The positive aspects of warming temperatures, mainly longer growing seasons and more habitable conditions in the northern temperate and sub-arctic areas, are never mentioned.

Predictions of more and more severe hurricanes, and so forth have all gone pffffffft.

Who wants to be the first to tell people in rural China and India and Africa that they can't have reliable air conditioning, industrial growth, or modern conveniences because that new power plant they want to build will be spewing CO2 into the atmosphere? And of course, they dare not even THINK of nuclear power, since its dangers are absolutely un-fucking imaginable!

I hope everyone notices that the Lefties are doing their damndest to prevent humanity from enjoying the benefits of the massive new natural gas finds around the world, trying to scare people with phony threats of groundwater contamination and other bogus environmental catastrophes. Science - when it suits us.
O yeah, the Lefties are the ones who are promoting real SCIENCE, and not some dumbfuck political agenda. Thank god for such as rube.

[Grim Reaper]

Melting ice in water will not cause the volume to increase (or the seas to rise). If ice slides off dry land into the ocean, that can cause the seas to rise, however, if the air temperature is rising, the rate of evaporation will also rise - more clouds, more rain.

Your hypocrisy is amazing that you would post completely contradictory information within the same post. You somehow think that increased evaporation, which would lead to increased storm activity, would somehow not lead to more hurricanes. You can't have it both ways.

And you act like you're the holder of some super secret knowledge. As if nobody else in existence has bothered to consider that increased temperature might lead to increased water evaporation and taken that into account when considering the rise of sea level.

Anyone doing 15 minutes of research on the subject will quickly learn that much of the data supporting global surface temperature increases is very suspect - significantly impacted by the positioning of the monitoring stations near heavily populated areas. Clearly, many of the people accumulating this data have a transparent agenda which I will not bother to articulate.

You're not going to bother to articulate the agenda because it doesn't exist. You want there to be an agenda because you can't understand why people would want to make the world a better place.

But even if the temperatures are rising and the seas will rise, the CREDIBLE estimates are on the order of a couple of inches over the next century, which will have a minimal impact on human activity.

A couple inches is a huge deal when almost half of humanity lives near the oceans. And you'd be willing to risk billions of lives if you were wrong. Which is just fine to you since you have shown a complete lack of empathy toward anyone else.

Predictions of more and more severe hurricanes, and so forth have all gone pffffffft.

The concepts of "long term" and "global" have completely escaped you. I bet you laugh every winter about global warming being a hoax because it's cold where you're at.

Who wants to be the first to tell people in rural China and India and Africa that they can't have reliable air conditioning, industrial growth, or modern conveniences because that new power plant they want to build will be spewing CO2 into the atmosphere? And of course, they dare not even THINK of nuclear power, since its dangers are absolutely un-fucking imaginable!

The only person making these arguments is you. So pack up your strawman garbage and try again with a real argument.

[rubato]

WOW dgs get this weeks prize for most scientifically illiterate!

In general, things expand when they are heated, and they contract as they cool. Water ice is an exception to the rule because the 3-dimensional crystal structure of ice is less dense than water (why ice floats). But water ice is the only known substance that does this. And when it is heated above 4C it becomes less dense (expands). When sea water expands with heating, sea level rises.

Coefficient of expansion of water:
http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_water.htm

At 4°C pure water has a density (weight or mass) of about 1 g/cu.cm, 1 g/ml,
1 kg/litre, 1000 kg/cu.m, 1 tonne/cu.m or 62.4 lb/cu.ft

At 4°C pure water has a specific gravity of 1. ( Some reference the s.g. base temperature as 60F.)

Water is essential for life. Most animals and plants contain more than 60 % water by volume.

More than 70 % of the Earth's surface is covered with about 1.36 billion cubic kilometers of water / ice

The density of pure water is a constant at a particular temperature, and does not depend on the size of the sample. That is, it is an intensive property. The density of water varies with temperature and impurities.

Water is the only substance on Earth that exists in all three physical states of matter: solid, liquid and gas.

When water freezes it expands rapidly adding about 9 % by volume. Fresh water has a maximum density at around 4° Celsius. Water is the only substance where the maximum density does not occur when solidified. As ice is lighter than water, it floats.

Water has a very simple atomic structure. This structure consists of two hydrogen atoms bonded to one oxygen atom - H2O

Note; kg/m3 divided by 16.02 = lbs/cu.ft. kg/m3 divided by 1,000 = g/ml
Convert g/cm3 = g/cc = g/ml = g/mL - they are all the same.

yrs,
rubato

[Rick]

It will certainly affect the height of waves and tides and tidal duration.

The addition of melt will affect over all water levels.

[MajGenl.Meade]

FWIW South Africans are learning what a 'tornado' is. While not unknown in the past, they are rare here and people have pointed to news stories from the USA of devastation in Tornado Alley and commented that "at least we don't have those kinds of things here". Well just yesterday the town of Kestell in the Free State east of us got hit.

In the past two years there have been at least three death-causing tornado hits, an increase in deaths from violent storms - usually fires caused by lightning. Global weirding is probably associated.

In purely local weirding however, KwaZulu Natal's MEC for co-operative governance and traditional affairs Nomsa Dube responded in this fashion:

"We will do an investigation and talk to the department of science and technology on what is the cause of the lightning," said Dube. "Scientists from the department could perhaps help us and come up with instruments that could help community members protect themselves against lightning. The department has dealt with floods and fires, but lightning was new to us."

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/articl ... ning-probe

She is still waiting for science to do something.

Meade

[dgs49]

So rube, why don't you run the calculation: If the mean sea temperature increases by a couple degrees F over the next hundred years, what will be the effect OF THAT EXPANSION on the sea levels?

My guess: approximately NOTHING! Not even measurable. For all practical purposes, water does not expand when heated a few fucking degrees.

Thanks for the several paragraphs of irrelevant information about water. It was very comforting.

[rubato]

Interesting. You had no idea what you were talking about before, and you still don't.

Just yelling and bloviating. And asserting 'facts' without the slightest knowledge of the field at all.


http://cosee.umaine.edu/cfuser/resource ... _level.pdf



yrs,
rubato

[dgs49]

Dear Ruby:

What a nice little science lesson. It ASSERTS that the volume of ocean water will increase due to the rise in temperature, combined with melting ice (not sea ice), and proposes an experiment that will demonstrate that water will expand significantly in a glass flask as the temperature rises significantly.

No disputing that. It's physics.

The question is, will a couple degrees increase in sea temperatures over a hundred years, by itself, make a MEASURABLE difference in sea levels? My suspicion is that since water expansion is slight in any event, and would be microscopic in case of a few degrees rise in temperature, the rise in sea leval due to thermal expansion is not even worth mentioning.

Again, this is only my suspicion, but it seems to me that 99% of any rise in ocean levels will be the result of melting glaciers. Including a mention of expanding volume of sea water is worthy of nothing more than a footnote - rather like the drain on a car's fuel economy when you turn on the headlights.

At the top of this thread, you implied that thermal expansion was a significant factor in rising sea levels.

Prove it.

[Sue U]

In purely local weirding however, KwaZulu Natal's MEC for co-operative governance and traditional affairs Nomsa Dube responded in this fashion:

"We will do an investigation and talk to the department of science and technology on what is the cause of the lightning," said Dube. "Scientists from the department could perhaps help us and come up with instruments that could help community members protect themselves against lightning. The department has dealt with floods and fires, but lightning was new to us."

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/articl ... ning-probe

She is still waiting for science to do something.

Meade

(Emphasis aded.)

I thought science, in the person of Dr. Franklin, had addressed this issue some 250 years ago?

[Grim Reaper]

The question is, will a couple degrees increase in sea temperatures over a hundred years, by itself, make a MEASURABLE difference in sea levels? My suspicion is that since water expansion is slight in any event, and would be microscopic in case of a few degrees rise in temperature, the rise in sea leval due to thermal expansion is not even worth mentioning.

A microscopic change can result in a measurable increase when you're dealing with a gigantic volume of water like the ocean.

[rubato]

http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/sotc/sea_level.html

"...
Current conditions: contribution from melting glaciers

Global sea level is currently rising as a result of both ocean thermal expansion and glacier melt, with each accounting for about half of the observed sea level rise, and each caused by recent increases in global mean temperature. For the period 1961-2003, the observed sea level rise due to thermal expansion was 0.42 millimeters per year and 0.69 millimeters per year due to total glacier melt (small glaciers, ice caps, ice sheets) (IPCC 2007). Between 1993 and 2003, the contribution to sea level rise increased for both sources to 1.60 millimeters per year and 1.19 millimeters per year respectively (IPCC 2007).

... "


OR you can show us all that you know how to do arithmetic, which I doubt, and do the following calculation:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water ... d_162.html

Using the data from the linked site show us how much a column of water 30 meters deep (about 90 feet, roughly the surface water which is mixed by wave action) will be deflected upwards with a 5C increase in temperature. (sorry, that's the interval in the database, live with it, or you can be astonishingly clever and divide it in 1/2!).

Recall that oceans are confined downwards and to a great degree sideways so that all expansion will appear as vertical deflection.

yrs,
rubato







yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

"We will do an investigation and talk to the department of science and technology on what is the cause of the lightning," said Dube. "Scientists from the department could perhaps help us and come up with instruments that could help community members protect themselves against lightning. The department has dealt with floods and fires, but lightning was new to us."

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/articl ... ning-probe

(Emphasis aded.)

I thought science, in the person of Dr. Franklin, had addressed this issue some 250 years ago?

Yes that's true but he somehow neglected to come up with an instrument that would prevent the neighbours from stealing the rods and cables from those foolish enough to go to sleep at night! Plus the majority of deaths occur in metal shacks - hmmmmm......

Meade

[dgs49]

OK, so let's do the math:

0.42mm/yr * 88 years (until 2100) = about 37mm, which is less than an inch and a half.

Imagine the world's oceans A WHOLE INCH AND A HALF DEEPER!

Be still my heart.

[Grim Reaper]

Puts a stopper to your claim that it wouldn't be measurable. And that's an inch and a half on top of the increase from melting ice. And that's assuming things don't increase as the Earth heats up more in the future.

[dgs49]

Mr. Reaper, you really are a dick.

As I have said from the top of this thread, the increase due to thermal expansion would be essentially NOTHING. And that is the case.

An inch and a half = nothing.

[Grim Reaper]

An inch and a half isn't nothing. And that's an inch and a half at current levels of expansion. And you keep ignoring the part where that inch and a half would be on top of the sea level increase that would come from ice melting.

So you can take your name calling and stuff it. Try again when you're willing to have an adult conversation.

[rubato]

And we see graphically why the Republicans can count on empirical stupidity as a political force!

Stupid reproduces itself with great regularity.

yrs,
rubato

[Rick]

Actually it wouldn't be an inch and a half ocean wide since the ocean temp is not homogeneous.

As mentioned before it would affect tides and more importantly waves it would also affect some shipping.

As water becomes less dense ships displacement becomes greater. Ships then carry less ballast or smaller loads, I would think smaller loads would be the obvious choice but the seas are ruled by money...

[dgs49]

G.R., you really are a moron. The topic of discussion is the increase in sea levels DUE TO THERMAN EXPANSION OF WATER. This is what Rube brought up at the top of the thread. If you could read, you would have noted that I specifically stated on more than one occasion above that I was excluding the effects of melting ice. An inch and a half is NOTHING!

And Keld, on what basis do you conclude that THERMAL EXPANSION - by itself - will affect the tides (i.e., the delta between the local sea levels at high tide and at low tide)? Seems to me that whatever the effect at high tide will be duplicated at low tide.

Do tell.

And do you really think that the miniscule difference in water density on ship bouyancy will have any effect whatsoever in ocean shipping?

Good God, you fukkers will go to any length to disagree.