I'm Sure This Will Thrill Strop...

[Lord Jim]

Britain's queen shakes hands with ex-IRA chief


BELFAST (Reuters) - Britain's Queen Elizabeth shook the hand of former Irish Republican Army (IRA) commander Martin McGuinness for the first time on Wednesday, drawing a line under a conflict that cost the lives of thousands of soldiers and civilians, including that of her cousin.

The meeting with McGuinness, who is now the deputy first minister of British-controlled Northern Ireland, comes 14 years after the IRA ended its war against Britain's claim to the province, and is one of the last big milestones in a peace process whose success has been studied around the world.

The queen met McGuinness behind closed doors in a theatre in a leafy middle-class suburb of Belfast, which hundreds of police cordoned off ahead of the event.

There has been scattered opposition to the gesture of reconciliation from dissident Irish militants and from some of the IRA's victims. But the vast majority of the province's politicians back the meeting, the first between the queen and a top member of the IRA or its former political wing, Sinn Fein.

"Today is a huge event and it is, in a sense, the ultimate handshake," John Reid, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland from 2001 to 2002, told the BBC.

"On all sorts of levels this is a hugely significant step but it is only one more step in a long process. This may take generations - to get back to absolute reconciliation in Northern Ireland and the island of Ireland."

McGuinness has long been reconciled with the fiery anti-Catholic Unionist leader Ian Paisley, who sat with him in a power-sharing provincial government.

The queen regularly meets senior Unionist politicians, Protestants who want Northern Ireland to stay inside the United Kingdom, but not Sinn Fein, the largest party representing Catholic nationalists who want a united Ireland.

HERO AND HATE-FIGURE

McGuinness, deputy first minister of Northern Ireland's power-sharing government, is a hero to Republican hardliners, but has long been a hate figure to Unionists, many of whom harbor deep suspicions about his past.

He admits he was on the front line in the war with British forces, including on Bloody Sunday in 1972, when troops shot dead 13 unarmed protesters, but says he never killed anyone.

A British report said that McGuinness probably was armed with a submachinegun on Bloody Sunday, but did nothing to provoke the massacre. He has said he left the IRA in 1974, but most historians believe he was active for most of its campaign.

For the queen, the Northern Ireland conflict has long had a personal edge. Her cousin Lord Mountbatten was killed by the IRA in 1979 with three others, including his 14-year-old grandson, when his boat was blown up while he was on holiday in Ireland.

More than 1,000 members of the British security forces were among 3,600 people killed during the 30 years of the "Troubles".

"I represent people that have been terribly hurt by British state violence over the course of many years," McGuinness said in a video interview that Irish journalist Eamonn Mallie posted on his website on Tuesday.

"But I am also big enough to understand that Queen Elizabeth has also lost a loved one, and of course there are families in Britain. Mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers, children of people who were sent here as British soldiers who lost their lives also."

Sinn Fein, which has become increasingly popular south of the Irish border as the main party opposing an EU/IMF bailout, is keen to bolster its image as a mainstream party and distance itself from a violent past that alienates many southern voters.

http://news.yahoo.com/britains-queen-me ... 37189.html

[rubato]

She is tiny, isn't she?

yrs,
rubato

[BoSoxGal]

She wore green; lovely!

[Gob]

Anything which helps bring peace with Ireland I'm for!

[rubato]

This is already very long after the fact.

yrs,
rubato

[Sean]

No it isn't. The bombings may have stopped but the tension and animosity still run very deep.

[Gob]

Oh dear, more ignorance from the usual source.

By Suzanne Breen
Friday, 22 April 2011

A group of former Provisional IRA members have claimed responsibility for the murder of police officer Ronan Kerr in Omagh.

In their first ever public statement, the ex-Provisionals vowed to continue the IRA's campaign of violence until "British occupation" ended and Irish unity occurred.

In what represents a major split and breakaway in Provisional ranks, they said they had watched as the peace process failed to deliver republican goals, and they had now taken on the mantle of the mainstream IRA.

"The will of Irish republicans to resist the forced occupation and partitioning of our country has not been defeated," they said. "Irish republicans have continued to organise against the British presence in our country. We continue to do so under the name of the Irish Republican Army. We are the IRA."

The news comes as police revealed that a man is to be charged in relation to the murder of Constable Kerr. A 33-year-old Omagh man is due to be charged in Dungannon magistrates court on Saturday with possession of firearms and explosives with intent to endanger life and possession of articles likely to be of use in terrorism



Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... z1z2gOKaIS

[rubato]

As a matter of degree the significant change happened a while ago. There are always lone holdouts. "Tails" of history.

Stop being such an asshole. If you can.

yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

oh well, following such an erudite and substantiated debunking of the fact that there is still great hostility and hatred in Ireland, who could argue with that?

[Sean]

Rubato if you really think that there are just a few "lone holdouts" involved you obviously haven't got a fucking clue what you are talking about. I strongly advise that you put a sock in it before you make yourself look like a complete cretin.

[Gob]

Shutting the stable door a bit late there Sean...

[rubato]

Numbers and facts not your style?

Most people can detect a large change in deaths/year in the following table:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... flict-data


Year ….. Civilian ….. British Security ….. Republican Paramilitary* ….. Loyalist Paramilitary ….. Irish Security* ….. Totals
….. ….. ….. ….. ….. …..
….. ….. ….. ….. ….. …..
1969 ….. 12 ….. 2 ….. 1 ….. 1 ….. ….. 16
1970 ….. 17 ….. 2 ….. 6 ….. ….. 1 ….. 26
1971 ….. 89 ….. 60 ….. 20 ….. 2 ….. ….. 171
1972 ….. 249 ….. 148 ….. 70 ….. 11 ….. 1 ….. 479
1973 ….. 119 ….. 82 ….. 37 ….. 15 ….. ….. 253
1974 ….. 191 ….. 73 ….. 23 ….. 7 ….. ….. 294
1975 ….. 174 ….. 35 ….. 24 ….. 27 ….. ….. 260
1976 ….. 207 ….. 61 ….. 17 ….. 9 ….. 1 ….. 295
1977 ….. 49 ….. 50 ….. 6 ….. 6 ….. ….. 111
1978 ….. 40 ….. 35 ….. 7 ….. ….. ….. 82
1979 ….. 38 ….. 76 ….. 7 ….. ….. ….. 121
1980 ….. 34 ….. 37 ….. 6 ….. 2 ….. 1 ….. 80
1981 ….. 42 ….. 51 ….. 18 ….. 2 ….. ….. 113
1982 ….. 36 ….. 58 ….. 10 ….. 5 ….. 1 ….. 110
1983 ….. 34 ….. 39 ….. 8 ….. 2 ….. 2 ….. 85
1984 ….. 22 ….. 32 ….. 13 ….. 1 ….. 1 ….. 69
1985 ….. 17 ….. 31 ….. 7 ….. 1 ….. 1 ….. 57
1986 ….. 27 ….. 25 ….. 7 ….. 2 ….. ….. 61
1987 ….. 41 ….. 29 ….. 24 ….. 4 ….. ….. 98
1988 ….. 38 ….. 46 ….. 15 ….. 5 ….. ….. 104
1989 ….. 30 ….. 40 ….. 3 ….. 3 ….. ….. 76
1990 ….. 36 ….. 34 ….. 8 ….. 3 ….. ….. 81
1991 ….. 52 ….. 24 ….. 15 ….. 5 ….. ….. 96
1992 ….. 58 ….. 11 ….. 17 ….. 3 ….. ….. 89
1993 ….. 62 ….. 18 ….. 6 ….. 2 ….. ….. 88
1994 ….. 48 ….. 7 ….. 3 ….. 6 ….. ….. 64
1995 ….. 6 ….. 1 ….. 1 ….. 1 ….. ….. 9
1996 ….. 6 ….. 1 ….. 8 ….. 2 ….. 1 ….. 18
1997 ….. 12 ….. 5 ….. 2 ….. 3 ….. ….. 22
1998 ….. 46 ….. 2 ….. 2 ….. 5 ….. ….. 55
1999 ….. 5 ….. ….. 2 ….. 1 ….. ….. 8
2000 ….. 8 ….. ….. 1 ….. 10 ….. ….. 19
2001 ….. 9 ….. ….. ….. 7 ….. ….. 16
2002 ….. 9 ….. ….. ….. 2 ….. ….. 11
2003 ….. 4 ….. ….. 1 ….. 5 ….. ….. 10
2004 ….. 3 ….. ….. ….. 1 ….. ….. 4
2005 ….. 6 ….. ….. 1 ….. 1 ….. ….. 8
2006 ….. 3 ….. ….. ….. ….. ….. 3
2007 ….. ….. ….. 2 ….. ….. ….. 2
2008 ….. ….. ….. ….. ….. ….. 0
2009 ….. ….. 2 ….. ….. ….. 1 ….. 3
2010 ….. ….. ….. 1 ….. ….. ….. 1

[rubato]

reformatted for clarity w/ 3/yr running averages to help spot trends.


Year ….. ….. ….. Totals ….. 3-yr running avg
….. ….. ….. …..
….. ….. ….. …..
1969 ….. ….. ….. 16 …..
1970 ….. ….. ….. 26 …..
1971 ….. ….. ….. 171 ….. 71.0
1972 ….. ….. ….. 479 ….. 225.3
1973 ….. ….. ….. 253 ….. 301.0
1974 ….. ….. ….. 294 ….. 342.0
1975 ….. ….. ….. 260 ….. 269.0
1976 ….. ….. ….. 295 ….. 283.0
1977 ….. ….. ….. 111 ….. 222.0
1978 ….. ….. ….. 82 ….. 162.7
1979 ….. ….. ….. 121 ….. 104.7
1980 ….. ….. ….. 80 ….. 94.3
1981 ….. ….. ….. 113 ….. 104.7
1982 ….. ….. ….. 110 ….. 101.0
1983 ….. ….. ….. 85 ….. 102.7
1984 ….. ….. ….. 69 ….. 88.0
1985 ….. ….. ….. 57 ….. 70.3
1986 ….. ….. ….. 61 ….. 62.3
1987 ….. ….. ….. 98 ….. 72.0
1988 ….. ….. ….. 104 ….. 87.7
1989 ….. ….. ….. 76 ….. 92.7
1990 ….. ….. ….. 81 ….. 87.0
1991 ….. ….. ….. 96 ….. 84.3
1992 ….. ….. ….. 89 ….. 88.7
1993 ….. ….. ….. 88 ….. 91.0
1994 ….. ….. ….. 64 ….. 80.3
1995 ….. ….. ….. 9 ….. 53.7
1996 ….. ….. ….. 18 ….. 30.3
1997 ….. ….. ….. 22 ….. 16.3
1998 ….. ….. ….. 55 ….. 31.7
1999 ….. ….. ….. 8 ….. 28.3
2000 ….. ….. ….. 19 ….. 27.3
2001 ….. ….. ….. 16 ….. 14.3
2002 ….. ….. ….. 11 ….. 15.3
2003 ….. ….. ….. 10 ….. 12.3
2004 ….. ….. ….. 4 ….. 8.3
2005 ….. ….. ….. 8 ….. 7.3
2006 ….. ….. ….. 3 ….. 5.0
2007 ….. ….. ….. 2 ….. 4.3
2008 ….. ….. ….. 0 ….. 1.7
2009 ….. ….. ….. 3 ….. 1.7
2010 ….. ….. ….. 1 ….. 1.3

[Scooter]

No one has denied that the violence has decreased substantially. But that does not mean that all traces of tension have disappeared and that everyone is ready to join hands and sing a few choruses of Kumbaya. Do you imagine that everyone who lost a child/spouse/sibling/parent/friend during the Troubles has gotten over it just because a peace agreement was signed? Do you imagine that 500 years of seeing the English as oppressors simply vanished and that every Irish Catholic is ready to treat his/her Anglo neighbour to a pint at the pub? This meeting was only a gesture, to be sure, but it was a gesture that held a lot of meeting for those whose wounds are still raw, even if they are no longer making the streets run red with blood.

That this meeting does not strike you as particularly significant is beside the poiint. What matters is that people on both sides of the Irish Sea DO see it as significant. And at the end of the day, how they view it is all that matters.

[Sean]

But Rubato had a chart Scoot...

A fucking chart!

I'll certainly be paying more heed to him in future than to my friends and family who actually live in Ireland...

[rubato]

Rubato has the facts, and you have shit. Per usual.

"Peace" is defined by a cessation in violence; certainly in relative terms. Racist hatred takes generations to undo; you will be suffering from it for longer than that.


But what I found interesting is that N. Ireland screwed themselves by not joining the Republic of Ireland who have a much higher std of living than both the UK and N. Ireland and much higher GDP/ person. Even after the recent economic collapse.



yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

It's like the UK are an inert mass dragging N. Ireland down to their level:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ment_Index

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland

yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

Rubato "proves" what no one has denied, yet again....

[rubato]

rubato kicked your ass to the gutter.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/2 ... t-12-years

"....

The Home Office figures published today show that England and Wales are in the middle of the European murder league at 13.5 deaths per million population. Finland tops the table at 23.4, followed by Scotland at 21.4, and Ireland on 20 per million. Northern Ireland now has a murder rate well below Scotland at 15.2. Austria has the lowest murder rate in Europe at 6.1 per million.
..."




yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

Oh yes, comparative murder rates was exactly what we were discussing...

What a foolish child this retard is.