Sean wrote:
One other thing, she can't simultaneously "obviously [know] that gandy dancers weren't actual dancers" whilst at the same time believing an apocryphal story from her grandfather that they were.
For the second time;
loCAtek wrote:
While we didn't call them that in the West (the railroad workers most often spoke Spanish or Chinese); my Grandfather worked the rails from his teens to his retirement
Nobody could have predicted that the collision of cultures in the New World centuries ago would result in tap, the uniquely American dance form. Yet the fusion of British Isles clog and step dancing with the rhythms of West African drumming and dancing in colonial times created an ever-evolving art form that continues to flourish today.
In the mid-1600s, Scottish and Irish indentured laborers brought their social dances to the New World. Slaves in the southern United States imitated the rapid toe and heel action of the Irish jig and the percussive sensibility of the Lancashire clog, and combined them with West African step dances that were known as "juba" dances and "ring shouts." As a result, African dance styles became more formal and diluted, while European elements became more fluid and rhythmic, eventually resulting in a uniquely American tap hybrid.
The Timeline of United States railway history is as follows:
1810s-1830s: Various inventors and entrepreneurs make suggestions about building model railways in the United States; In 1825 John Stevens (inventor) builds a test track and runs a locomotive around it in Hoboken, New Jersey.
1820s and 1830s: The Baltimore and Ohio is incorporated in 1827 and officially opens in 1830.[1]:21 Other railroads soon follow, including the Camden and Amboy by 1832.
August 8, 1829: The Stourbridge Lion, first steam locomotive in the US, is tested along tracks built by the Delaware and Hudson company.
1830s-1860s: Enormous railway building booms in the United States. Railroads replace canals as a primary mode of transportation.
...But tap didn't become a stage dance until the rise of the minstrel show in the late 1800s. White dancers (usually Irish) blackened their faces with burnt cork and staged performances based on their interpretations of African and African American dance and music styles, competing to see who had the most "authentic" material. From 1840 to 1890, minstrel shows were the most popular form of American entertainment, featuring a variety of jokes, songs, dance and music in a loose format.
...
1900-1920: The Birth of Tap
The term "tap" came into popular use as late as 1902. In the 1800s, the dance had been referred to as "buck-and-wing," "buck dancing," or "flat-footed dancing." Metal taps attached to shoe bottoms weren't commonly used until after 1910. Before then, most shoes were made of leather uppers and wooden soles, while others had hobnails or pennies pounded into the toe and heel.
Frankly, I don't think it's all that great an explanation either, but my point was that Lo didn't just make it up; there are others who have believed and repeated this hypothesis (including, apparently, her grandfather).
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
— God@The Tweet of God
The cross-culturization most likely happened in that way, since after the Civil War, African Americans had few job options outside of being laborers. The railroad played a major role in employing African-Americans, where there were already many Irish immigrants working.
Veterans for the Railroad's Ranks
The end of the Civil War brought a change of fortune for the Union Pacific. Thousands of demobilized soldiers were eager for work. Additionally, by 1866 the railroad had managed to import Irishmen from the teeming cities of the eastern seaboard
Okay, I haven't really followed this exchange closely enough to make any substantive judgements about the merits, but it does seem pretty obvious to me that Sean's use of the term "leprechaun" was intended as nothing other than a humorous substitution for the word "Irish"....
ETA:
So it would seem to me that anyone who would seize on the use of that word as having brought some substantive new element in to the exchange would be constructing something of a diversion...
I'm just glad that Sean has stepped up to the plate and taken her attention from me and Hen.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
loCAtek wrote:The cross-culturization most likely happened in that way, since after the Civil War, African Americans had few job options outside of being laborers. The railroad played a major role in employing African-Americans, where there were already many Irish immigrants working.
True, but it most likely occurred dancing around the campfire or something, rather than "dancing" on the prybar while lifting the rails. That may have been how the term "gandy dancer" originated, but the actual dance steps that got cross-culturized were more complicated than anything that likely happened on the job in a situation like that. Also, in looking for images of gandy dancers (I was actually trying to prove your point), I couldn't find a single picture of one of them actually standing on a prybar or shovel while levering up the rail, so doing that was probably relatively uncommon. A good story, but most likely apocryphal.
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
— God@The Tweet of God
Eco, to be clear; my Grandfather didn't tell me about the Irish step-dancing on the pry-bars.
What he knew was the physics fulcrum formula(s) that said if your lever (pry bar )isn't very long, you need to apply more downward force; to lift the wieght at the bottom of your lever.
If you don't have a lot of force (because all you have is manual labor) then you can 'bounce' the bar, to work the wieght up gradually.
It made perfect sense to me, that a man standing on the bar (to add his full mass to the force needed) and bouncing; would also for entertainment value- do a dance or jig. The Irish step dance seems well suited to that since the feet are kept close together, and body kept well balanced over a small area.
The crew audience would include Black workers, who might copy the jig when it was thier turn to lever up a rail or tie. From there, they could have continued entertaining themselves with the dance, in thier off hours, until it evolved into their own style, which would later become tap dancing.
Yes, I can just imagine someone doing an Irish Jig on these.
There are a variety of theories about why track workers came to be known as gandy dancers. The “dance” part is actually rather easy, as most track crews sang songs while they worked to keep rhythm. Singing also helped to dispel fatigue, and on a well-coordinated crew, the singing and carefully timed movements could be reminiscent of dancing.
As for the “gandy,” things are a bit more complicated. Some people have suggested that it is a reference to special tools known as gandies which were use for lifting the rails while ties were replaced. However, this could easily be a backformation from “gandy dancer.” Others have said that it is a nod to the Gandy Manufacturing Company of Chicago, which made lots of tools for track maintenance. This would be plausible, except that no record of this company's existence can be found.
In another theory about the origins of "gandy dancer," people point to the way in which the rails used to lie track were handled. These rails were very heavy, and typically a large crew of men would move the rail together, shuffling carefully in time to the music and supposedly looking like a flock of waddling geese. This apparently led people to call track workers “gander dancers,” which was corrupted into “gandy dancers,” though why ganders specifically instead of geese in general would be singled out is unknown. Perhaps it is a reference to the all-male nature of historic train crews.
Whatever the origins of the term, gandy dancers routinely ride the rails to inspect them. Every time a train passes, the vibration loosens the fixtures of the track, so it is important to tighten tracks, check for rotting or damaged ties, and clear hazards on the tracks such as downed trees. Gandy dancer crews historically used specially built lightweight track cars, which could be self-powered or powered by a small engine, to travel the sections of the track they maintained. Many modern crews use custom-fitted cars and trucks which are capable of driving on train tracks.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
The Irish workers would jump up onto those narrow metal bars, do a little jig to remind them of Connemara, and the black rail workers would say; "Hey that looks real neat", and imitate them.
From there it's a short step to tap dancing, via minstrel shows!
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
There are various theories about the derivation of the term, but most refer to the "dancing" movements of the workers using a specially manufactured 5-foot (1.52 m) "lining" bar (which may have come to be called a "gandy") as a lever to keep the tracks in alignment.
And:
Others have suggested that the term gandy dancer was coined to describe the movements of the workers themselves, i.e., the constant "dancing" motion of the track workers as they lunged against their tools in unison to nudge the rails, often timed by a chant; as they carried rails; or, speculatively, as they waddled like ganders while running on the railroad ties.
The Hen wrote:Well, wherever the term came from, by the look of what they were doing, it isn't 'dance' as we know it.
True. The situation may have led to a cross-cultural exchange between Blacks and Irish on the same crews, but I think it's more likely that the actual dancing part took place off the job.
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
— God@The Tweet of God
loCAtek wrote:
In the East, the technique of pulling up a railroad tie by jumping or dancing, with the full weight of your whole body on a giant pull-up bar; was accentuated by the Irish with their native Stepdancing. Their fellow Black workmen, took notice of this and made it more colloquial, which in turn- became what is known as Tap Dancing in the US.
Which we have seen is now bullshit.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
