Chicago twinned with Bagdad

[Gob]

Nineteen people were shot in seven attacks overnight in Chicago, as the US city's gun violence epidemic continued.

Thirteen of the victims were shot within a half-hour period, including eight in a drive-by shooting on a single street.

Chicago officials have been battling a sharp increase in shootings and homicides, with some elected officials arguing gangs do not fear the police.

The city's murder rate has spiked 29% year-over-year as of this month.

By that time in 2011, 270 people had been killed in the city, according to data complied by the local newspaper RedEye Chicago. In 2012, that number is 348.

Most of the violence has been in Chicago's troubled south and west sides, but also a handful of incidents in the downtown area.

But New York is slacking...

A fired women's apparel designer shot dead a former colleague outside the Empire State Building in New York City before he was killed by police.

Nine others were hit by bullets, some possibly fired by police, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg said.

Those wounded suffered minor injuries and all were expected to survive.

Police Commissioner Ray Kelly named the shooter as 58-year-old Jeffrey Johnson, who lived in Manhattan. His victim was Steven Ercolino, 41.

Among those wounded were four men and five women, aged 20 to 56, authorities said. They were all from New York City except one woman from Chapel Hill, North Carolina.

[Lord Jim]

Nineteen people were shot in seven attacks overnight in Chicago, as the US city's gun violence epidemic continued.

Well, there's my nominee for The Worst Misstating Of A Problem In a Newspaper Headline for 2012...

It's not a "gang violence epidemic" or a "crime violence epidemic".....(or God forbid some more complex explanation)

Nay nay...

It's a "gun violence epidemic"....

As though these guns simply went into business for themselves, leaving carnage in their wake....

It must be some sort of Rising Of The Machines!....

Make a great premise for a science fiction movie....

[Scooter]

Perhaps they refer to it as a "gun violence epidemic" because there is an epidemic of people being killed with guns, as opposed to, say, daffodils being wielded menacingly.

[Crackpot]

pointed stick!

[Lord Jim]

Bad guns! Bad, bad guns!

Don't you guns do that again, or you'll be in for a sound thrashing!

[Lord Jim]

pointed stick!

Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves
against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh?

[dales]

Happiness is a warm gun
(Bang bang, shoot shoot)
Happiness is a warm gun mama
(Bang bang, shoot shoot)
When I hold you in my arms
(Oh yeah)
And I feel my finger on your trigger
(Ooo, oh yeah)
I know nobody can do me no harm
(Ooo, oh yeah)

Because happiness is a warm gun mama
(Bang bang, shoot shoot)
Happiness is a warm gun, yes it is
(Bang bang, shoot shoot)
Happiness is a warm, yes it is, gun
(Happiness, bang bang, shoot shoot)
Well, don't you know that happiness is a warm gun mama
(Happiness is a warm gun yeah)

[Lord Jim]

I always thought that would have been a great title for a James Bond movie, and a great theme song for the movie....

Happiness Is A Warm Gun....



Bang bang shoot, shoot....

Cue the silhouette of the dancing nude on the Beretta...

[loCAtek]

um Baghdad? Yeah... no. No comparison.

[Gob]

It looks like the NY cops are jealous of Chicago's record!

All nine people injured in Friday's Empire State Building shooting were hurt as a result of police fire, New York's police chief has confirmed.

During the incident, which was captured by surveillance cameras, police officers shot dead a gunman who had just killed a former work colleague.

Commissioner Ray Kelly said bystanders had been hit by bullets or fragments of bullets striking objects.

They suffered minor injuries and all are expected to survive.

[Gob]

An ex-Marine wearing desert camouflage has opened fire at a US supermarket, killing two of his co-workers and himself as other terrified store employees ran for cover, authorities say.

Terence Tyler, 23, left his shift around 3.30am on Friday, drove off and returned 20 minutes later to the closed store with a handgun and an assault rifle similar to an AK-47, Prosecutor Bruce Kaplan said.

About 12 to 14 workers were still at the Pathmark store in Old Bridge, New Jersey.

He first fired outside the store at an employee, who ran inside and warned co-workers as Tyler kept firing and entered the store, Kaplan said.


Tyler stopped at one of the supermarket aisles and fired at five other workers, killing 18-year-old Christina LoBrutto and a 24-year-old Bryan Breen as other workers hid, officials said.

"I do not believe that they were specifically targeted. I believe everybody in the store was a target," said Kaplan.

After firing at least 16 shots, the gunman then drew his handgun and killed himself, the prosecutor said.

[rubato]

If guns really are not the issue then perhaps we should just sell dynamite and blasting caps over the counter at the drug store?

Owning and operating motor vehicles is a heavily regulated activity because we are not driven into shrill paranoid hysterics about "car-grabbers" every time we find a way to cut the number of traffic deaths. When someone is forced to pay damages for parking on a hill and failing to set the brake we all recognize the utility of locating the costs of carelessness on the person best able to avoid the problem. When > 300,000 guns are given to criminals each year by careless owners who don't secure them we just make excuses and let those murdered and raped with those guns bear the cost. Gun owners are allowed to transfer the costs of their hobby onto the rest of society; gun socialism?





yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

To be fair, the same is true of cars that are stolen--the owner (and owner's insurance company) bear no responsibility. My car was once hit by a stolen car (really allegedly stolen--he said it was in his driveway and he left the keys in it, I htink he fled the scene and then abandoned the car), and I was on my own to pay for the damages to my car, much as someone shot by a stolen gun would be.

[rubato]

To be fair, the same is true of cars that are stolen--the owner (and owner's insurance company) bear no responsibility. My car was once hit by a stolen car (really allegedly stolen--he said it was in his driveway and he left the keys in it, I htink he fled the scene and then abandoned the car), and I was on my own to pay for the damages to my car, much as someone shot by a stolen gun would be.

Car owners have to pay the costs of insurance. Which increase if they are careless. Gun owners have zero financial incentive.

We should require that all purchasers of guns buy insurance against the losses that careless or illegal use of the gun will incur.


yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

I'm not sure I understand rubato--car owners (insured or not) are liable for their own negligient and intentional acts that harm others--gun owners are as well. However, when are car is stolen a car owner is not responsible for any damages caused by the thief, which is the case with gun owners as well. Both have a financial incentive to act responsibly when they are driving/using their guns because (whether insured or not) they will be held responsible for their own actions (and the actions of anyone they let use the car/gun); insurance only helps to cover this responsibility. Why do you think requiring gun owners to buy insurance would make them act any more responsibly?

As I understand it, the requirement of mandatory auto insurance is designed to protect the injured parties (which can be quite numerous as many cars are on the road), not to incentivize safe driving habits among the insured. If you feel that those injured by guns in accidental shootings by gun owners are so numerous as to require the same protection you may have a point, but it will have zero effect on the criminal use of stolen guns (just as the car insurance regulations have zero effect on how criminals drive stolen cars).

[rubato]

Car owners are liable if they leave the keys in the car in many jurisdictions:.

http://www.expertlaw.com/library/car-ac ... ility.html
http://overlawyered.com/2009/05/owner-o ... run-death/
http://www.barronstad.com/resources/res ... n_ignition
http://blog.lawinfo.com/2011/06/22/if-y ... s-damages/

"...
Some states have taken this far enough to require that a car be locked when you leave it. The reason is to protect vehicles from being stolen, but also for the protection of a third person, like a bystander. A bystander could be injured because of the negligence in leaving a car unlocked. Where statutes are in place, the court will normally also conclude that the theft and the thief’s negligence are not superseding causes, since their conduct was somewhat foreseeable and was part of the risk that the statute was designed to prevent.
... "

And further, guns are uniquely dangerous objects which are known to be used in crimes like murder and rape and a reasonable person could foresee that leaving a gun unsecured would arm a criminal who broke into their house. The std of care should be like that for storing dangerous chemicals and explosives and the billions of dollars cost to society should not be fobbed off on the innocent. Gun-hobbyists should pay their own way and not pass their costs off on everyone else. It is wrong.

A basic principle of tort law is that the costs should be located with the person best able to reduce them.


yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

Well, that's a bit different from requiring insurance, you're talking about changes in the law as to how guns can be kept and stored, which require looking at all sides of the issue. But your point is well taken and the debate should continue.

As for your last point, I don't completely agree. Responsibility is often laid in the lap of those best able to reduce the risk, but this is not always the party best able to "reduce the cost".

As for the links you posted, I'll look at them when I get a chance, but I would bet these are a minority of jurisdictions.

[rubato]

So do you agree or disagree that the shooting sports should pay their own way?

That they should pay the costs to society imposed by guns?

All else is stupid legal masturbation.


yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

Well, when you talk about masturbation (legal or otherwise) in a thread having nothing to do with it, then it's time for me to stop playing. It was fun while it lasted.

[oldr_n_wsr]

So do you agree or disagree that the shooting sports should pay their own way?

That they should pay the costs to society imposed by guns?

All else is stupid legal masturbation.


yrs,
rubato

Only if every other item that costs society does the same. Knife owners, bat owners, vicious dog owners, bleach owners, drano owners, pill owners (oxy's and the like), hammer owners, ax(e) owners, chainsaw owners and anything else that people might be (or have been) harmed/killed by if stolen.

Also you said;

Car owners are liable if they leave the keys in the car in many jurisdictions:.

my bold
From reading your linked articles they do not say car owners ARE liable, they say:

Most Courts Rule The Thief Is Liable Even If You Leave Your Keys In The Ignition
.....
However, in some odd cases, the courts have ruled that a person who leaves their keys in their car is financially responsible. The rationale here is that the owner should foresee that leaving the keys in the car will materially increase the risk of harm to others. For example, a car left in a known skid-row area, with a high crime rate was enough to put the owner on notice of the increased danger of theft and ensuing negligence.

and

Owner liability ordinarily invovles the permissive use of a vehicle.
....
Owner liability does not ordinarily extend to non-permissive uses of a car, although an owner's negligence may sometimes cause liability to follow even where a car is stolen. For example, some jurisdictions will hold an owner liable if they leave the keys in the ignition of the car, and their car is stolen and subsequently invovled in an accident.

But that article fails to identify those jurisdictions.
and this one

"It's an act of negligence for a person to leave their car with the motor running and easily accessible to anyone who wants to steal it," said Scott Rynecki, another lawyer hired by the Ogles. "And if a party is going on in your house, you have an obligation to be responsible and make sure there is no underage drinking."

So how many parents have gone to pick up their kids at a party and ran in while leaving their car running outside? Show of hands? the Aye's have it.

As for the second part of the statement, I concur.

So basically we have lawsuits brought by those harmed/killed where most of the time the court will decide that the person who was the victim of the theft of their vehicle was not liable.

Now the opening article did not mention (unless I missed it) that the guns used were stolen. So why the sidetrack?