What the fuss is all about

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Lord Jim
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by Lord Jim »

This was really nice to see:
Angry Libyans Target Militias, Forcing Flight

BENGHAZI, Libya — Galvanized by anger over the killing of the popular American ambassador here last week, thousands of Libyans marched through this city on Friday, demanding the disarming of the militias that helped topple the dictatorship but have troubled the country with their refusal to disband.

In a show of mass frustration at the armed groups, protesters seized control of several militia headquarters on Friday night and handed them over to Libya’s national army in what appeared to be a coordinated sweep. They also stormed the headquarters of Ansar al-Sharia, a hard-line Islamist militia that has been linked to the attack on the United States Mission in Benghazi that killed the ambassador and three other Americans.

As members of Ansar al-Sharia fled their headquarters, protesters set at least one vehicle on fire, and Reuters reported that one person was killed. There were unconfirmed reports that several had been wounded by the departing gunmen.

At the seized headquarters of another militia, protesters burned and pillaged a large number of weapons, and hundreds of looters could be seen walking away with automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenade launchers.

The killing of the ambassador, J. Christopher Stevens, a well-liked figure in Benghazi because he had worked closely with the rebels who toppled Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi last year, appeared to be the catalyst for the protests on Friday, though hardly its only cause.

The militias, which started forming soon after the February 2011 uprising against Colonel Qaddafi began in this eastern Libyan city, emerged as a parallel and often menacing presence after his downfall in October 2011, seizing territory for themselves and asserting their authority over the fledgling government.

In western Libya, turf wars between militias resulted in regular street fights with heavy weapons. Months ago, members of Ansar al-Sharia brandishing weapons paraded through Benghazi and called for an Islamic state.

It was unclear whether the backlash against Ansar al-Sharia and the other militias on Friday represented an opportunity for the government to consolidate its power in the post-Qaddafi era or would lead to new violent confrontations.

But no weapons were left behind in most of the seizures, protesters and officials said, suggesting the militias had been anticipating such an event because of a buildup of resentment against them.

In a further sign that tensions had been stoked, some militia members accused Qaddafi loyalists of instigating the backlash. Mohamed Bazina, a spokesman for the Rafallah al-Sehati brigade, one of the militias whose headquarters were seized, said it had video evidence to prove it.

“This is a military coup against the true revolutionaries in the city of Benghazi,” he said. “Benghazi will not calm down.”

The attack on the American Mission in Benghazi that killed Ambassador Stevens, on the 11th anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks, was an affront to many in Benghazi, which Mr. Stevens had made his base during the uprising. He became a familiar, cheerful presence at public events.

“We want justice for Chris,” read one sign among the estimated 30,000 Libyans, including families, who marched into Benghazi’s main square on Friday to protest in front of the chief encampment of Ansar al-Sharia.

Some held signs reading “The ambassador was Libya’s friend” and “Libya lost a friend.” Many protesters carried Libyan flags, and government police officers could be seen mingling with the marchers.


Members of Ansar al-Sharia held a counterdemonstration, and arguments erupted between the opposing sides, but no violence occurred, at least not initially. Protesters chanted: “You terrorists, you cowards. Go back to Afghanistan.”

Mr. Stevens and the others were killed in mayhem that was ostensibly provoked by anger over an anti-Muslim video that was made in the United States and has been roiling the Islamic world for nearly two weeks. But officials have said there are indications that part of the attack may have been coordinated and planned.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/world ... itter&_r=0

It's unfortunate there was some violence at the end, but it really helps to confirm what I've been saying abut the attitude of the average Libyan about this...

In Libya, the demonstrations expressing outrage over the attack on the consulate have been much larger than those of the idiots parading around bent out of shape over that stupid movie.

The Libyans are not a nation of ingrates, and they want us to know that. We were right to support them. Ambassador Stevens in particular is widely held in high regard for the hands-on role he played, at great personal risk, coordinating aid to the rebels in Benghazi during the revolution.
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Lord Jim
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by Lord Jim »

Some pictures from the demonstration:

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(Okay, so the kid's got some spelling issues; at least his heart's in the right place.)

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And here's a link to a TV news story about it:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7422630n
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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Wow,
That's good to see.

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Sue U
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by Sue U »

Lord Jim wrote:When you think about it, acting with mindless outrage requires a lot of energy; it's tough to maintain if you're overwhelmed with things to be outraged about....
Oh I don't know; Fox News and the Tea Party seem to have it figured out.


8-)
GAH!

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Gob
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by Gob »

Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, the alleged filmmaker behind the video that sparked protests across the Muslim world, was arrested on Thursday, the Los Angeles district attorney's office said.


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The alleged director or producer of Innocence of Muslims was ordered to appear in court in downtown LA, reportedly for a probation violation, local media reported.

"I can confirm he's in custody, scheduled to make a court appearance as we speak, in federal court in downtown LA," Thom Mrozek of the US Attorney's Office said, giving no further details.


The exact nature of the court appearance is unclear, because the federal court documents have been sealed. Officials have been investigating whether Nakoula may have violated probation terms for a previous offence.

Advertisement The US District Court for the central District of California said people who wanted to could view the hearing via a video-conference system from a nearby courtroom.

Concerns have been raised for Nakoula's safety due to the widespread anger his alleged video has provoked among Muslims. He went into hiding shortly after the protests erupted.

Nakoula - allegedly the real identity behind the pseudonym Sam Bacile, listed as the director of "Innocence of Muslims" - was briefly taken into custody earlier this month for questioning by his probation officer.

He was traced to a home address in Cerritos, south of Los Angeles, after international protests erupted against the 14-minute trailer video posted online.



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/antiislam-f ... z27jMYA6uZ
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I see on the e-TV news this morning that Coptic Christians are fleeing out of the Sinai. Honestly, isn't this kind of film exactly the same thing as shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theatre?
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Only as much as elephant dung on a picture of the Virgin Mary or the Crucifix in a jar of urine is.

Don't you know, these things are "art". :shrug

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

That's total balderdash (sorry). The known, predictable (and often desired) result of this film and cartoons of the prophet etc is to inflame radical Moslems into acts of violence and even murder. It is the exact equivalent of shouting fire and causing death and injury by the panic purposely induced.

The predictable result of stupid American tricks with pictures of Mary and the crucifix is stupid outrage by stupid Americans followed by general silence and disregard - which would have been the better response in the first place

Meade
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

Big RR
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by Big RR »

Also, oldr, as I recall, the elephant dung/mary portrait was not intended to be provocative--it wasa type of painting ordinarily employed in the area where the artist came from. Piss christ, on the other hand, was inteded to be provocatve and and spur discussion.

Meade--I tend to agree with you, especially re the best response the americans should have mustered. However, as for the rabid muslims, while I agree it's best not to provoke them (and it may not be in our national interest to do so), I don't think it is something that should be prohibited akin to shouting fire in the theater. If we judge the propriety of personal speech by the reactions of the irratiional (however predictable that may be) pretty much any speech could be banned, giving the government the right to ban any politically problematic speech.

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Lord Jim
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by Lord Jim »

I see a huge difference between this and the "crowded theater" analogy...

Wanting to get out of a theater that is on fire is a perfectly rational and understandable impulse...your life is in danger...

In the case of this movie, rioting because you're offended is not a rational impulse, and the only people whose lives are endangered are innocent people who had nothing to do with the film....
Last edited by Lord Jim on Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Hmmm. No, in the case of a false threat of danger the motive of the person uttering it is the point - not the reaction of the people who believe (incorrectly) that they are in danger. Those endangered are innocent people who have nothing to do with the false-alarm.

But their injury and demise is the clearly foreseen result of the person who thinks it amusing to shout "fire". It is a result that person seeks to achieve.

Rioting because you are offended LJ would certainly not be rational, given your cultural beliefs. It does however appear very rational to the people rioting - the movie is a political provocation by the United States (the great Satan) which permits these things to be purposely engineered to 'damage' (Lord knows how) "the Faith".

If I know that the reaction of a person (a rational reaction or not in my opinion) to something that I do will be to kill you LJ, I would hesitate a long time over doing whatever it was. I like to think, forever. But if I went ahead anyway and said to them "Well that's not rational so I'm going to go ahead" - and they then did kill you as promised, I think I'd bear some responsibility. Probably not criminal but then again.....

Now I don't think the government should ban "speech" (Big RR). What they should do is bang the bastard into prison as a consequence of that speech which was designed to cause panic in the theatre of world politics and achieved its goal remarkably well. That goes for that so-call christian arse and burning the Koran as well. Both could be construed (to my warped mind) as treason to the United States since they have direct results in sabotaging US policy and betraying our own people to risk of death

Meade
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

Big RR
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by Big RR »

Well Meade, I disagree; imprisoning someone for incovenient political speech is akin to banning it--just imagine what would happen if the incumbent president could imprison the challenger for uttering speech that he deemed to be "dangerous", where dangerous was defined as something that would incite the irrational. Who would be safe? Speaking one's mind is not treason in a free society.

And I disagree that the response is rational; the deliberative muslim (and I know plenty), would deplore the blasphemy and even find it saddening, but (s)he would not resort to rioting (which is mindless violence). The irrational one will be stirred up into rioting foor no reason other than feeling offended.

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Sorry Meade, that dog won't hunt. ;) You seem to be saying that if someone is offended (by whatever) and escalates that offense to killing the innocent, then we should shut him up by making some kind of law against it.

People can, and do find offense to many things but they don't go around killing people over it. Besides, this whole clusterf--k over the movie (of which only a trailer has been released AFAIK) was nothing more than excuse. Are we to appease every offense that might be taken?
Sorry, not going there.

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Lord Jim
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by Lord Jim »

I think you're going to find that you've staked out a pretty lonely position for yourself on this one Gen'l....

I believe Obama really hit the nail on the head on this issue in the speech he gave to the UN...(It's not often I find myself agreeing with Obama and disagreeing with Meade, but then it's not everyday that Meade suggests throwing someone in the pokey for saying something that some ignorant hot heads find objectionable enough to go on a vandalizing spree... 8-) )
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dgs49
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by dgs49 »

It seems to me that throughout the Arab world over the past 60 years or so, there have been thousands of religious leaders and millions of screaming private citizens shouting, "Death to America," "Death to Israel and the Zionists," and so forth. They publish overt hate in their childrens' school textbooks, encouraging their children to grow up and be suicide bombers, killing jews and Americans. Right now, we have a large Islamic nation performing an absurd kabuki dance - at once stating that they are NOT pursuing nuclear weapons, while at the same time threatening to destroy Israel and the United States with them.

And the Western world basically gives them a pass. It's just words. If "we" threaten to retaliate against these overt THREATS, or take them seriously, "we" are castigated as warmongers.

And yet when some crackpot from California comes out with a film representing HIS OWN views mocking Islam and those who profess it, the West is supposed to be understanding of Islamic sensitivities and not condemn their criminality. It is understandable. Our own Secretary of State, in effect, blames the film-maker for the deaths, destruction, and violence.

The resident idiot on this board, who holds the world's billion Catholics all personally reponsible for the actions of a couple thousand aberrant priests, tells us that we should be tolerant and recognize that the crazy muslims who are rioting don't represent Islam, and we shouldn't hold the entire religion in contempt over the head of a few whackos.

The voice of reason. Right.

Big RR
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by Big RR »

voice of reason or not, he is right re islam. But then it's far easier to hate and condemn an entire religion, roman catholicism or islam, based on the actions of a few jerks.

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Sue U
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Re: What the fuss is all about

Post by Sue U »

I'm gonna jump in with Jim, Big RR and oldr on this one. It's not our government's job to keep people's feelings from getting hurt -- let alone people halfway around the world. Our first responsibility as Americans is to protect our own freedoms, and that means taking seriously the bromide, "I abhor what you're saying but will defend to the death your right to say it." Moreover, I agree that the people doing the rioting should take responsibility and be held to account for their own actions. No matter what society one lives in, this kind of violence is completely unwarranted and totally unacceptable.
GAH!

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