The Vatican has issued a new set of guidelines today that list the attempted ordination of women as a 'grave crime'.
The rules say such a 'crime' should be handled according to the same set of procedures as sex abuse.
They have sparked arguments that grouping the two in the same document would imply equating them.
The Vatican issued the guidelines in response to the clerical sexual abuse scandal. It is the first major Vatican document since the clerical abuse scandal erupted earlier this year.
The Vatican in 2007 issued a decree saying the attempted ordination of women would result in automatic excommunication for the woman and the priest who tries to ordain her.
That is repeated in the new document, adding that the priest can also be punished by being defrocked.
Today Vatican sex crimes prosecutor Monsignor Charles Scicluna defended the inclusion of both sex abuse and ordination of women in the same document.
He said it was a way of codifying two of the most serious canonical crimes against sacraments and morals that the congregation deals with.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... abuse.html
Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
So we are to pretend they don't exist while shipping them around from parish to parish?
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
dba, care to opine?
Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.
yrs,
rubato
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
I fail to understand how any thinking person can remain a member of this church.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
Treating the child abuse issue as merely a PR problem is precisely how the church ended up in this situation in the first place. I suppose given how they've acted in the past, this latest announcement shouldn't be a surprise.
Seriously Jim, do you want your daughter's core principles guided by a group of -- lets face it --old white men, who think she has less of a value as a human than her little brother, and that she should be subjugated to him and treated as inferior to him, for the rest of her life?
I *know* you've got more sense than to stand for (or support) that.
Seriously Jim, do you want your daughter's core principles guided by a group of -- lets face it --old white men, who think she has less of a value as a human than her little brother, and that she should be subjugated to him and treated as inferior to him, for the rest of her life?
I *know* you've got more sense than to stand for (or support) that.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
Guin--what institution that's been around for a while isn't run by a bunch of "old white men"? Hell, that's how our government is run. I'm no defender of the polices and theology of the RC church, but one can either to choose criticize it from the outside, or to work from the inside to effect change. I think there are many within institutions, religious and otherwise, that are doing just that and that they are achieving change, although at a maddeningly slow pace. One need only look at the power and influence someone like Mother Teresa wielded to see that women are not always subjeugated by that institution and, indeed, there are other role models to gitls and women as well. Things are changing, and will continue to change in the RC church, as well as other "old white male" dominated institutions--look at the US Supreme Court.
That being said, this latest treatment of child abuse is pretty ridiculous, as is equating ordaining women priests to be a crime of the same or similar magnitude. but I do hava question re the following statment for the RCs here:
That being said, this latest treatment of child abuse is pretty ridiculous, as is equating ordaining women priests to be a crime of the same or similar magnitude. but I do hava question re the following statment for the RCs here:
Don't you need to be a bishop to ordain a priest? I thought that's the reason some episcopal/anglican and orthodox priests are recognized as priests in the RC church, because they can trace the auhroity of their bishops (whatever they call them) to ordain priests and consecrate new bishops to breakaway RC bishops who went to the new religions when splits occurred centuries ago.The Vatican in 2007 issued a decree saying the attempted ordination of women would result in automatic excommunication for the woman and the priest who tries to ordain her.
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
BigRR, yes, but pretty much every other institution has made strides to change that balance, and not continue to fight against it. There are two, and perhaps soon to be three women on the SCOTUS. 33% representation isn't enough, but its far more than in the leadership of the Catholic church.
And I also get working from the inside - its a strategy I've used much of my life. But at some point I think you have to say enough is enough. If people don't reject these abhorrent policies and vote with their feet, nothing is going to change.
Finally, lets consider Mother Theresa. She stayed in the role she was allowed to have, and she tended to, mostly, women, children, and the miserably poor -- again, staying within pre-ordained gender defined roles. How exactly did she weild power? She was great PR for the church, and they utilized that to her advantage, but I don't see how she had any actual power.
And I also get working from the inside - its a strategy I've used much of my life. But at some point I think you have to say enough is enough. If people don't reject these abhorrent policies and vote with their feet, nothing is going to change.
Finally, lets consider Mother Theresa. She stayed in the role she was allowed to have, and she tended to, mostly, women, children, and the miserably poor -- again, staying within pre-ordained gender defined roles. How exactly did she weild power? She was great PR for the church, and they utilized that to her advantage, but I don't see how she had any actual power.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
Well guin, from what i understand, Mother Teresa ran her order and charitable foundation pretty much free from Vatican Influence, and she was often in comflict with them. Yes, she tended the poor and sick, but that is what she chose to do, and she refused to become a vatican cheerleader who could be parded around to help raise support. One of my favorite stories of her was when she was visited by a pope (I don't recall which one) and after he left, he gave here his limosine for her own personal use. She chose to sell it right away and when it got back to her that the pope was a bit ticked off, she said "Tell him the poor need it more than him or me". From what i have read, she was a contant thorn in the side of the vatican 9and wealthy governments) constantly pointing out how they could enjoy great prosperity whil allowing muh of the world's population to live in unbelievable poverty and, due in no small part to her notoriety, few in the RC hierarchy dared to take her on or to shut her up. And she made a big difference in the lives of untold numbers of people. That loooks like power to me.
edited to add: BTW, don't confuse the above with my endorsement of wverything she did. From what I understand, she was fairly conservative from a theological perspective and privately flouted some of the Vatican 2 reforms, and she steadfastly held to a belief in the immorality of birth control (and how anyone who works with the desperate poor in a third world country is beyond me), it's only that I thnk she did hold considerable power within the male dominated hierarchy of Roamn Catholicism.
As another example of thw power of women in the RC church, I did some work a number of years ago with a Tennessee hospital run by an order of nuns, and all administrative functions were handled by the nuns in the order without any diocesan or other hierarchical interference; the executive committee and the Board of Directors were dominated by the nuns. This was a power wielded by women that I haven't seen at other hospitals (or amny corporations of s similar size) for that matter.
edited to add: BTW, don't confuse the above with my endorsement of wverything she did. From what I understand, she was fairly conservative from a theological perspective and privately flouted some of the Vatican 2 reforms, and she steadfastly held to a belief in the immorality of birth control (and how anyone who works with the desperate poor in a third world country is beyond me), it's only that I thnk she did hold considerable power within the male dominated hierarchy of Roamn Catholicism.
As another example of thw power of women in the RC church, I did some work a number of years ago with a Tennessee hospital run by an order of nuns, and all administrative functions were handled by the nuns in the order without any diocesan or other hierarchical interference; the executive committee and the Board of Directors were dominated by the nuns. This was a power wielded by women that I haven't seen at other hospitals (or amny corporations of s similar size) for that matter.
Last edited by Big RR on Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
Wow...Treating the child abuse issue as merely a PR problem is precisely how the church ended up in this situation in the first place.
Did you completely miss my point....
My point about the "PR issues" wasn't to minimize child abuse...
I think I've made my views very clear on that...
The point I was making there was that they had to be completely tone deaf from a PR standpoint to equate a vile act like molesting children with the ordination of women as Priests...( a topic about which reasonable folks of goodwill may differ but NOT something that should in any way shape or form be equated with child molestation...)
Guin, I find that offensive on so many levels...Seriously Jim, do you want your daughter's core principles guided by a group of -- lets face it --old white men, who think she has less of a value as a human than her little brother,
My daughter's "core principles" are "guided" by myself and Kelly...And our Catholic Church and school here do a magnificent job of reinforcing those values and principles...(as well as providing a first rate education) The Pastor, the principal, the teachers...everyone associated with the Church and the school are sincere, dedicated folks who know there stuff, and people for whom I have nothing but the highest regard...(Not because I "blindly" follow a religious dogma, but because I have known them, and worked with them, for six years)
I can assure you that "you have less value than your brother" ain't a part of the curriculum.... (but then neither is learning how to put a condom on a banana in the fifth grade, so I suppose she's been deprived of that...)
You don't know the first thing about our Church or the Church's school, or what values or principles are being taught there , and yet you sit there and presume to try to tell me what "principles" she's being taught ...
I'll tell you what "principles" are being taught at her school:
Self respect, respect for others, and the importance of service...(the kids in every grade perform different kinds of community service every month, appropriate to their age group...at a nursing home and in programs run through The San Francisco Food Bank )
I'm sorry, but you were way out of line with that one, and your point is not well taken.
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
Jim--re the "less value than your brother", if and when the questions of why women cannot aspire to the priesthood and/or participate in much of the traditional management of the church comes up from your daughter, how would (did) you handle it. I can understand the implication that women are less because only men can do these important jobs, so what would you tell your daughter?
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
Big RR, I suppose I'll cross that bridge when I come to it...if it ever comes up....(it might; she's expressed an interest in becoming an altar server...I think primarily because her best friend is one...so if she does that I imagine she'll have more questions to ask....maybe I'll have Father Ed explain it to her...I'm sure he'll enjoy that... 
)
But what's important for me and Kelly right now is what's going on at St. Cecilia's....
Not some abstract philosophical PC debate about women becoming priests, or any other Vatican policy....
)But what's important for me and Kelly right now is what's going on at St. Cecilia's....
Not some abstract philosophical PC debate about women becoming priests, or any other Vatican policy....
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
Jim, I suggest you take a deep breath and read what I wrote again. First of all, I specifically distinguished your abilities to see past the dogma. Nothing I said was intended to be an insult to you or your family. I am truly puzzled that intelligent, well-meaning people can continue to support the Catholic church as it does nothing but muck up this situation further. FWIW I've raised this issue with other Catholics on multiple occasions, including this morning -- none of them took my comments quite so personally as you seem to have done.
Second, the church is, in part, in this situation because they *have* treated the child abuse issues as PR problems. Don't forget, I live in Massachusetts where all of this went down first, and I have read and listened to and discussed this suituation over and over -- with lawyers, priests, laymen, Catholics and non-Catholics alike. I've learned a lot. I understand tradition and history, I know not everyone who is Catholic agrees with the church on every, or even many issues. But ultimately, as I wrote to BigRR above, working "inside" isn't enough. Regardless of the good works done, ultimately the church has utterly failed to police itself and its priests with respect to the child abuse issues, and it continues to fail to find a meaningful role for women which is not always subjugated to men. Equating the sin of pedophelia with the sin of ordination of women is outrageous --- and it also underscores the overall lack of respect the church continues to have for women.
Finally, membership in the Catholic church is not required to teach self-respect, respect for others, ethics, morals, or any of the other values you wish to espouse. I'm sure you would agree with that statement -- and if not, I'd like to know why.
Second, the church is, in part, in this situation because they *have* treated the child abuse issues as PR problems. Don't forget, I live in Massachusetts where all of this went down first, and I have read and listened to and discussed this suituation over and over -- with lawyers, priests, laymen, Catholics and non-Catholics alike. I've learned a lot. I understand tradition and history, I know not everyone who is Catholic agrees with the church on every, or even many issues. But ultimately, as I wrote to BigRR above, working "inside" isn't enough. Regardless of the good works done, ultimately the church has utterly failed to police itself and its priests with respect to the child abuse issues, and it continues to fail to find a meaningful role for women which is not always subjugated to men. Equating the sin of pedophelia with the sin of ordination of women is outrageous --- and it also underscores the overall lack of respect the church continues to have for women.
Finally, membership in the Catholic church is not required to teach self-respect, respect for others, ethics, morals, or any of the other values you wish to espouse. I'm sure you would agree with that statement -- and if not, I'd like to know why.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
There is *nothing* PC about the challenging the Vatican policies regarding women and child abuse.
Good God, you're just making this worse. That's exactly the kind of "throw off" "taking this too lightly" kind of attitude which keeps circling back on itself. If you don't care about the bigger problems and are only focussed on what is going on in your immediate world you're just sticking your head in the sand.
Good God, you're just making this worse. That's exactly the kind of "throw off" "taking this too lightly" kind of attitude which keeps circling back on itself. If you don't care about the bigger problems and are only focussed on what is going on in your immediate world you're just sticking your head in the sand.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
Guin--child abuse aside (because i think we're all in agreement on the seriousness of this), does the view of the vatican on mwomen (and their ability to ascend to the clergy) affect you at all? I presume you are not a member of the RC church, so other than being just a throwback to an outmoded way of thinking re the role of women generally (and one found in many institutions), why do you care? I'd far more rather take their stand against contraception on as something that has contributed heavily to the misery of millions as being something morally indefensible, than some view of women that has little effect on any other than members who blindly follow the dogma.
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
Good Lord....There is *nothing* PC about the challenging the Vatican policies regarding women and child abuse.
Now you're doing the exact same thing the Vatican did....
Trying to put child molestation and the issue of women becoming priests in the same basket, as though they were morally equivalent issues....THEY MANIFESTLY ARE NOT
Let me say again....
I take a back seat to no one in my revulsion at the child molestation conducted by Catholic priests...
I'll embrace the Jaralaxe approach on that one...
They should all be taken out, lined up against a wall, and shot...
As should anyone who was knowingly involved in enabling them to carry out their horrific crimes....
Are we clear on the child molestation issue now?
Really?If you don't care about the bigger problems and are only focussed on what is going on in your immediate world you're just sticking your head in the sand.
You may call it, "sticking my head in the sand"....
I call it, "having my priorities in the right place"....
I'm dealing with the real world situation of raising two young children. They are my NUMBER ONE priority . (Whatever is " number two" ain't even close.)
And if you think I'm being myopic, or "sticking my head in the sand" by focusing on their best interests rather than on what some 80 something year old kraut living in Italy has to say about who can and can't be priests, then I stand guilty as charged.
That really gets me...the bigger problems
To talk about "the bigger problems" when the two "big problems" you are lumping together are child molestation and women not being able to be ordained as priests, is like lumping together mass murder and writing bad checks as "big problems".... They are on an order of magnitude in terms of moral wrong so vastly disparate, that it devalues and trivializes the seriousness of child molestation to even mention them together.
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
BigRR, as a woman all of this affects me, whether I am a member of the church or not (and no, I am not, nor have I ever been -- I am thankful that my own church takes a far broader view of the world (and yes, I still ahve problems with it too)). I view the policy on contraception as a symptom of the overall problem -- a lack of respect for women. If there were women in leadership roles in the church, I expect some of these policies would change.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
Jim, let me be clear if I wasn't before -- I don't think you condone the church's policies or actions regarding child abuse in any way.
And fine, I'll modify my earlier response -- there is nothing PC about challenging church policies regarding women. See my response to BigRR for more thoughts on that.
And fine, I'll modify my earlier response -- there is nothing PC about challenging church policies regarding women. See my response to BigRR for more thoughts on that.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
Point taken, but I think the policies against contraception are broader than that. Both men and women have gotten AIDS because condoms were banned, e.g.Guinevere wrote:BigRR, as a woman all of this affects me, whether I am a member of the church or not (and no, I am not, nor have I ever been -- I am thankful that my own church takes a far broader view of the world (and yes, I still ahve problems with it too)). I view the policy on contraception as a symptom of the overall problem -- a lack of respect for women. If there were women in leadership roles in the church, I expect some of these policies would change.
Re: Women Priests? Child abuse? Same crime..
And Guin, let me be clear...
I am not at all blind to the short comings and failings of the Catholic Church...I believe I've made that clear on numerous occasions...(Nor am I blind to all the good it does...there is no single private organization on the planet that does more to provide shelter, sustenance, and education to the poor and dispossessed than the Catholic Church)
I disagree with official Church doctrine on a whole host of issues; abortion, birth control, divorce, the death penalty, and a number of others...
I've also advocated for some time in favor of allowing priests to marry; I think that would bring a much more well rounded group of people into the priesthood. (It wouldn't really even be that big a step; the Church is already admitting married Anglican Priests as Catholic Priests)
But I'm not going to allow my differences with Rome over Church doctrine to trump the best interests of my children.
I am not at all blind to the short comings and failings of the Catholic Church...I believe I've made that clear on numerous occasions...(Nor am I blind to all the good it does...there is no single private organization on the planet that does more to provide shelter, sustenance, and education to the poor and dispossessed than the Catholic Church)
I disagree with official Church doctrine on a whole host of issues; abortion, birth control, divorce, the death penalty, and a number of others...
I've also advocated for some time in favor of allowing priests to marry; I think that would bring a much more well rounded group of people into the priesthood. (It wouldn't really even be that big a step; the Church is already admitting married Anglican Priests as Catholic Priests)
But I'm not going to allow my differences with Rome over Church doctrine to trump the best interests of my children.