Brit cops and guns

[Gob]

However, Gob will you admit that the two example that you provided are not good examples of the right to self-defense.

We there's your trouble right there, as the UK doesn't have the level of violence you seem to think it should have, examples are bloody hard to come by!!

If individuals are denied the means to defend themselves, do they really have a right to self-defense? There is a difference between what is written as law and what is practiced. They are not always the same.

There again, you are showing your US-centric lack of perspective. The UK is NOT the USA, your country and the UK are different places. Your obsession with having guns is not a UK thing, try stepping outside of your own comfort zone and experience for once....

Here's another clue, not only does the UK have a gun murder rate 10x less than the USA, but it has 5 x less murders of all sorts...

Are you getting it yet?

[liberty]

Gob, I am aware of other cultures and would not attempt to tell other people how to live.

[Miles]

Strop old son,

I have visited the UK and found it a very interesting. As for Australia I had oportunities but for some reason or another did not take advantage. I wish now I had. I also visited Europe and with the exception of France found the people to be friendly.

While I do believe in gun ownership there are many individuals who should not have them. However you can't have it both ways so until some of our wayward children grow up we are, unfortunately, open to criticism from those in other countries with differing opinions.

Personally I can't imagine being afraid to walk down the street in my own neighborhood for fear of being caught in a crossfire or a drive by. If I had the authority I would mobilize the 82nd Airborne with instructions to neutralize the gangs and drug people with whatever means necessary. Now lets not get busy turning me in to Homeland Security as advocating terrorism.

[oldr_n_wsr]

I do imagine that if many of those who consider the U.S. such a nasty place were to visit us, and not just the large cities, we could change that attitude.

Miles, if those who consider the UK and Aus not free and lacking Liberty do an exchange visit, you're on...

I'll come to Aus. When's hunting season and can I bring my guns? I'll hunt anything that is edible

[Gob]

Miles and O-n-W, I you know my comments were not aimed at you, but at other, less enlightened, persons. One day my friends we will sit down over a nice cup of tea, and put the world to right, face to face!

[Gob]

Burglars who break into country homes can expect to be shot at by their victims, a judge warned yesterday.

Judge Michael Pert QC spoke out after a lawyer demanded leniency for a career criminal who he claimed had been blasted with a shotgun in ‘a form of summary justice’.

The judge replied: ‘If you burgle a house in the country where the householder owns a legally held shotgun, that is the chance you take. You cannot come to court and ask for a lighter sentence because of it.’

He spoke out after Andrew Frymann, defending O’Gorman, suggested his client’s ‘near death experience’ should be ‘taken into consideration’ by the judge when sentencing.

Mr Frymann said O’Gorman had suffered serious facial injuries including permanent scarring. He added: ‘He was shot – without any warning or foresight – in the face with a shotgun.

'This is a form of summary justice or punishment which I submit should be taken into consideration.’

Leicester Crown Court yesterday heard Mansell and O’Gorman fled empty-handed from the cottage and were arrested hours later when they went to hospital for treatment.

'Their injuries were clearly visible as they stood in the dock. Mansell – who has a tattoo reading ‘Big Man’ on his neck – wore his arm in a sling, and O’Gorman has a scar from his right eye to his ear.

Alan Murphy, prosecuting, said the Ferries were woken by the sound of breaking glass as the raiders forced their way into their home with a garden fork handle.

As they made their way downstairs, Mrs Ferrie, the registered keeper of the shotgun, handed the weapon to her husband. Mr Murphy said: ‘Mr Ferrie described seeing three men in the hall or kitchen wearing some form of face coverings.

‘One of the men was reaching into a drawer that held a number of knives. As a result Mr Ferrie fired his shotgun.’

O’Gorman had 16 previous convictions involving 27 offences. He was on licence at the time he broke into the cottage, having been released early from a 14-month prison sentence for dangerous driving.

Mansell has eight previous convictions involving 19 offences. He was freed on licence following a conviction for causing grievous bodily harm.

Mansell and O’Gorman, both of Leicester, admitted burglary with intent to steal.

[Long Run]

Burglars who break into country homes can expect to be shot at by their victims, a judge warned yesterday.

Judge Michael Pert QC spoke out after a lawyer demanded leniency for a career criminal who he claimed had been blasted with a shotgun in ‘a form of summary justice’.

The judge replied: ‘If you burgle a house in the country where the householder owns a legally held shotgun, that is the chance you take. You cannot come to court and ask for a lighter sentence because of it.’

At least one judge over there has some common sense.

O’Gorman had 16 previous convictions involving 27 offences.

Mansell has eight previous convictions involving 19 offences.

Why three strike laws are popular.

[Miles]

Strop,
I never take offence to what you say as I know your intentions are not meant to offend. While I am a proud American who will always defend my country I can still see some of the faults in our society. We, as citizens of whatever country we live in, must by design support the duly elected government to the best of our ability. That being said we are not obligated to blindly follow said government. We have the opportunity to question and make changes within the guidelines of our constitution as do most other societies in this world.

[Lord Jim]

‘If you burgle a house in the country where the householder owns a legally held shotgun, that is the chance you take. You cannot come to court and ask for a lighter sentence because of it.’

It's amazing to me, (and a little sad) that a magistrate would feel compelled to make such a seemingly self-evident point as though he were addressing an open question about which reasonable folks could differ.....

[Lord Jim]

It would be sort of like a judge saying:

"Mr. Smith, you cannot expect to get a lighter sentence because the woman whose clothes you ripped off and attempted to rape kicked you in the testicles..."


Well....duh.....

[oldr_n_wsr]

No problems Gob, I know.

I could be another "Quigley Down Under" although I am not very good with a pistol.

[MajGenl.Meade]

It would be sort of like a judge saying:

"Mr. Smith, you cannot expect to get a lighter sentence because the woman whose clothes you ripped off and attempted to rape kicked you in the testicles..."


Well....duh.....

... or because your children almost became orphans.

[Gob]

here you go Libs!!

A US man mistakenly shot dead his 15-year-old son while investigating what appeared to be an attempted burglary next door, police say.

Jeffrey Giuliano, from New Fairfield in Connecticut, opened fire on a masked teenager outside his sister's house.

Police later told him he had killed his adopted son Tyler. No charges have yet been filed in the case.

"All in all it's a tragedy," said state police spokesman Lt J Paul Vance, quoted by the AP news agency.

According to police, the father was called by his sister, who lives next door, at around 01:00 on Friday (05:00 GMT) when she heard someone outside the house and believed they were attempting to break in.

Mr Giuliano confronted a person wearing a black balaclava and black clothing, and fired his gun when the person lunged at him with "a shiny weapon".

He did not know it was his son until they removed the head covering.

The teenager was discovered by police lying in the driveway with gunshot injuries, his father sitting nearby. Tyler was pronounced dead at the scene.

No charges have been filed, and an autopsy is planned.

Mr Giuliano is a science teacher in the town's school district.

In a statement to parents, schools superintendent Alicia Roy said: "Our district has experienced a tragedy that has affected us deeply".

"Everybody is just shaking their heads over it," New Fairfield First Selectman John Hodge told the Danbury News-Times on Thursday. "We're hoping the police can get to the bottom of it."

[liberty]

Gob, I don't think that your country would be as violent as mine even if you did have the same level of gun ownership. I don't know why that is; it could be that your country has more homogeneity even though that is changing or it could have something to do with the size of the country. Perhaps it is the culture; I wonder how your civil war compared to ours? Our war was very violent and the hostility lasted a long time.

[MajGenl.Meade]

liberry, I think most wars are violent. I assume you are referring to the English Civil War in comparison to the U.S. Civil War (why do you poeple - oh we people - call ourselves 'Americans' anyway? Canadians are Americans. Mexicans are Americans. Peruvians are Americans. It's the name of the continent. It's rather as if French people decided to call themselves "Europeans" as opposed to all the other Europeans that exist - we are USians.....) but I digress

The English Civil War was just as "violent" as the American version given that people got killed and maimed in quantity. In fact, unlike the ACW, the English version ended up with the winning side executing the lawful king. Lincoln's assassination is not analagous. Coming more than 200 years apart, the English version avoided the modern weaponry of the ACW; further the English war was definitely a class/religious issue whereas the ACW was one of region/power, slavery being but the excuse on both sides to seek domination.

The US situation (IMO) arose from the westward expansion and the perceived need to confront indigenous peoples plus the absence of justice from frontiers - which existed not just in the south west but anywhere west of Ohio. The populace began "armed" and continued that way. The British on the other hand had a smaller country; no frontiers; a relatively uniform rule of "law" such as it was; and a not really vital domestic arms industry. Much better at long arms than pistols. It also has no constitution enshrining not only a right but a duty to bear arms.

I'm sure there are many other factors.

Meade

edited: By "no frontiers" I meant not "no borders" - obviously we have those. I mean no "wild frontier" to move into for the last 1000+ years

[liberty]

When I said violent I was referring to the level of death and destruction. Did the armies in the English civil war meet on the field of battle or did they make war on woman, children and old people. Did they attack cows, corn and burn homes? The Yankees killed southerners, by way of starvation, even after the fighting was over. It was horrendous for my ancestors at the time, but it is logically the only way to fight a war. In Vietnam instead of bombing empty jungles, we should have attacked rice patties and irrigation systems.

[Gob]

The English Civil War (1642–1651) was a series of armed conflicts and political machinations between Parliamentarians (Roundheads) and Royalists (Cavaliers). The first (1642–46) and second (1648–49) civil wars pitted the supporters of King Charles I against the supporters of the Long Parliament, while the third war (1649–51) saw fighting between supporters of King Charles II and supporters of the Rump Parliament. The Civil War ended with the Parliamentary victory at the Battle of Worcester on 3 September 1651.

The English Civil War led to the trial and execution of Charles I, the exile of his son, Charles II, and replacement of English monarchy with, first, the Commonwealth of England (1649–53), and then with a Protectorate (1653–59), under Oliver Cromwell's personal rule. The monopoly of the Church of England on Christian worship in England ended with the victors consolidating the established Protestant Ascendancy in Ireland. Constitutionally, the wars established the precedent that an English monarch cannot govern without Parliament's consent, although this concept was legally established only with the Glorious Revolution later in the century.

The American Civil War (1861–1865), in the United States often referred to as simply the Civil War and sometimes called the "War Between the States", was a civil war fought over the secession of the Confederate States. Eleven southern slave states declared their secession from the United States and formed the Confederate States of America ("the Confederacy"); the other 25 states supported the federal government ("the Union"). After four years of warfare, mostly within the Southern states, the Confederacy surrendered and slavery was abolished everywhere in the nation. Issues that led to war were partially resolved in the Reconstruction Era that followed, though others remained unresolved.

The two are not comparable, no more than the US civil war and Vietnam War are.

[MajGenl.Meade]

When I said violent I was referring to the level of death and destruction. Did the armies in the English civil war meet on the field of battle or did they make war on woman, children and old people. Did they attack cows, corn and burn homes? The Yankees killed southerners, by way of starvation, even after the fighting was over. It was horrendous for my ancestors at the time, but it is logically the only way to fight a war. In Vietnam instead of bombing empty jungles, we should have attacked rice patties and irrigation systems.

I think you perhaps overstate the case somewhat. The biggest single acts of destruction of civilian cities took place in Atlanta and Richmond - both set ablaze by the retreating confederacy. Sherman's march to the sea cut a pretty big swathe what - about 50 miles wide? - and destroyed railroads, grain, and generally devastated the countryside, though not so many cities as they were few and far between - and Hunter's actions in the valley, especially near VMI was a bit rough to say the least. Jubal Early of course burned Chambersburg up there in PA as revenge on Hunter... and so it goes. Sheridan did a pretty good job in the Valley as he retreated back out of it - crops, factories, anything the rebels might find useful.

I suppose if you class that as "making war on women, children and old people" under the category of 'destruction' you've a minor point vis-a-vis the English CW. Though "death" is really a gross exaggeration. The life and economy of Virginia was ruined by both sides, though not a-purpose so to speak - that was a by-product of having the distinction of the most Federal Parks to hold battles in.

But to the average English peasant ordered to attend battle by Lord this and such and by roundhead pressure, I don't know that "civilian" deaths might not have been higher

Meade

[Gob]

A 90-year-old Greenbrae man who was shot in the head during an alleged burglary has been sued by the alleged burglar.

Samuel Cutrufelli, who was also shot during the incident, claims Jay Leone "negligently shot" him during the confrontation inside Leone's home.

Cutrufelli, 31, claims Leone caused him "great bodily injury, and other financial damage, including loss of Mr. Cutrufelli's home, and also the dissolution of Mr. Cutrufelli's marriage."

Cutrufelli shot Leone once in the face during the alleged burglary, and Leone returned fire, hitting Cutrufelli several times. Both men were hospitalized for an extended period after the gun battle.

Leone, reached at home Tuesday, said he was unaware of the lawsuit.

"He's the one who busted my door in," he said. "I'll just countersue him then. That's what I'll need to do."

The incident occurred at about 10:45 a.m. Jan. 3 at Leone's home on Via La Cumbre. Authorities said Cutrufelli entered the home, put a gun to Leone's head, tied his hands with a belt and rummaged through his bedroom for valuables.

Leone said he was able to wriggle his hands free, then convinced the burglar to let him use the bathroom. Then he got one of the five handguns stashed in his bathroom, sneaked back to the bedroom and spotted Cutrufelli in his closet.

Cutrufelli allegedly fired his gun, hitting Leone in the jaw area, and Leone fired back. Cutrufelli then wrestled his gun away, put it to Leone's head and pulled the trigger, but no bullets were left in the gun.

When police found Cutrufelli bleeding in his car a short distance from Leone's home, he said he had shot himself and needed medical attention, Twin Cities police said.

Cutrufelli could face life in prison if convicted of the charges. His lawyer, Sanford Troy, said Cutrufelli is a methamphetamine user, that the incident was a drug deal gone sideways, and that Leone shot him in the back when he was trying to flee.

Cutrufelli, a father of two, is a Petaluma resident with Novato roots.