24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

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Lord Jim
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24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by Lord Jim »

(I meant to post about this earlier)
Caltrans still seeks fix and cause for Bay Bridge's busted bolts

By Lisa Vorderbrueggen
Contra Costa Times
Posted: 04/04/2013 06:20:12 AM PDT
Updated: 04/04/2013 06:21:04 AM PDT

Three weeks after steel bolts snapped on the new Bay Bridge, Caltrans is still working to find the cause, choose a permanent fix and identify all the steel parts on the rest of the span that came from the same manufacturer.

A possible manufacturing glitch or nuts that were perhaps wrenched too tightly[nah, not gonna touch that one... too easy] are among the reasons under investigation. And the long-term engineering solution mentioned most often is an exterior steel sheath that would clamp together the affected bridge pieces.

But there are no definitive answers yet, and the $1 million dollar price tag being bandied about in the media in the past few days is a "highly preliminary estimate," said a Caltrans spokesman. The bridge construction budget includes a $300 million contingency fund.

Caltrans Director Malcolm Dougherty has put into writing the agency's investigation plan, which includes a reinspection of all other parts for the bridge supplied by Ohio-based Dyson.

"I want to reiterate that safety of the bridge once opened is the paramount and controlling factor in all decision-making on this issue," Dougherty wrote in his March 29 memo issued shortly after the agency briefed Bay Area transportation leaders.

Among Dougherty's directives:

Advise American Bridge/Fluor, the contractor building the self-anchored suspension span segment, in writing that it must show how it will meet the terms of its contract to deliver a safe bridge.[that's good; at least they had the sense to write a requirement for a "safe bridge" into the contract...]

Retest the failed rods under load circumstances similar to conditions on the bridge.

Spell out the quality assurance process used to test the rods before they were installed.

Identify the rods' suppliers and manufacturers along with all other components these firms produced for use on the Bay Bridge and inspect them.

High-strength steel can become brittle if exposed to hydrogen during the manufacturing or galvanizing processes, according to metallurgical engineers. Hydrogen atoms work their way into the spaces between the other elements and weaken the bonds that make the product strong.

The dearth of details is frustrating as the $6.4 billion bridge [well, half a bridge actually; the Eastern Span] nears the end of 11 years of construction, agreed Senate Transportation Committee Chairman Mark DeSaulnier, D-Concord.

Over and over, Caltrans has said that it does not expect the bolt problems to delay the Labor Day opening of the new bridge, [If you believe that, I have a bridge I can sell you] even though it can't say how it will overcome the construction setback.

"It's been 24 years since Loma Prieta, and we know the current bridge we're using is unsafe," DeSaulnier said. "But I'm relying on (California Business, Transportation and Housing) Secretary Brian Kelly to make sure that Caltrans gets the work done and can give us a report within two weeks."

The furor centers on the third of the 96 threaded steel rods -- 3 inches thick and 9 to 24 feet long -- that snapped in early March after crews tightened them down with nuts.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-new ... ge-project
Well, let's see...

The original Bay Bridge took three years to build, (both spans) and stood without failure, from 1936, to 1989...(with some retrofitting, it continues to get the job done...it was only out of commission a few months)

Getting this new, single span of the bridge built, between political wrangling and construction, has taken twenty four years....

And it's still a clusterfuck....

Hell, The Great Pyramid Of Giza only took 15 years to build...

As the evolution of engineering and construction proficiency goes, it doesn't seem like we're oaring in the right direction...

ETA:

It took six years (1863-1869) to build The First Continental Railroad....
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dales
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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by dales »

It's a wonder anything can get done in CALIFORNIA anymore.

There is so enough blame to go around on this gawd awful spectecle of govt. incompetence to last a lifetime.

I need a drink! :arg

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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Lord Jim
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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by Lord Jim »

Dale, after I moved out here, one of the things I used to remark on, was that took ten years...

Just ten years...

To rebuild this city from the ashes of the 1906 Earth Quake,into the shining metropolis of the 1916 Exposition...

But that from the mid 80's to the late 90's, it took 15 years of dithering on the Board Of Supervisors to figure out how to put pay toilets on the streets of San Francisco....

And when they finally did sort out that daunting task, they managed to get even that wrong....

Thus my characterization of San Francisco as, "The City That Used To Know How...."
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rubato
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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by rubato »

1/3 of the bolts snapped in no time. They were blaming the quality of the steel, that it was not prepared correctly, but that sounds more like a design problem. Someone got the numbers wrong on how much strain would be involved and how large the bolts had to be, or perhaps the flaw was even more basic, bolts were not the right solution.

The bridge has not been under construction for 24 years, most of that was political arguing. And if you already have a functional bridge you have the luxury of time in a way you don't if there isn't one. In fact the original bay bridge was discussed for 60 years (at least).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Franci ... Bay_Bridge
"... In early 1872, a "Bay Bridge Committee" was hard at work on plans to construct a railroad bridge. The April 1872 issue of the San Francisco Real Estate Circular contained an item about the committee:

The Bay Bridge Committee lately submitted its report to the Board of Supervisors, in which compromise with the Central Pacific was recommended; also the bridging of the bay at Ravenswood and the granting of railroad facilities at Mission Bay and on the water front. Wm. C. Ralston, ex-Mayor Selby and James Otis were on this committee. A daily newspaper attempts to account for the advice of these gentlemen to the city by hinting that they were afraid of the railroad company, and therefore made their recommendations to suit its interests.[13] ... "


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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by Lord Jim »

The bridge has not been under construction for 24 years, most of that was political arguing.
You're right rube, ("most" being a relative term here) which is why I said:
Getting this new, single span of the bridge built, between political wrangling and construction, has taken twenty four years....
After eleven years of construction, the Bay Bridge’s new eastern span is set to open to traffic this fall.

http://transportationnation.org/2013/01 ... ay-bridge/
So, 13 years of political wrangling, and 11 years of construction...(and counting...it's still not functional yet)

So assuming no more major glitches, they will complete the construction of this single span of the Bay Bridge in 2-3 years less than it took to build The Great Pyramid Of Giza; but still taking nearly four times as long as it took to build both spans of the bridge from scratch originally, and twice as long as it took to build The Continental Railroad...

Not an accomplishment to brag about in my book...
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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Being on the "right" coast, I have no clue what you guys are talking about other than some bridge which is falling apart even before it is finished and that it is somewhere in San Fran. Got some background?
NY state is preparing to build a replacement for the Tappan Zee bridge so I am curious about new bridge construction. I take the TappanZee to get to my lake house. OF course I can go to the Bear Mountain bridge, and while the construction of the new bridge/roadways is going on, most likely will.
Thanks

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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by rubato »

The original bridge failed after 53 years when a 6.9 earthquake centered 56 miles away struck*. It then failed again in 1969 when eyebars started snapping. Modern construction is designed to withstand much larger seismic events and is thus more complicated. Static loads are much easier to design for than dynamic ones and the shaking in an earthquake is not only horizontal but vertical as well. The orig. span is also extremely ugly and the design was out of date, even for its time. And what is more, the original construction didn't have to work around an existing traffic flow. Construction would have gone much faster if we'd just shut down the old span and torn it down.


The whole meme that "everything we do is worse and wrong" is strictly for cowards, defeatists, and failures.


We can, and most often do, better that we did in the 1930s when we were suffering from the last Republican-induced great economic collapse, all the time.


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* The approaches to the GGate bridge required re-working because of design flaws revealed by the quake but did not fail then.

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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by Crackpot »

I would guess that the current political climate has a lot to do with it back in the "good ole days" things were over engineered like crazy nowadays you have bean counters cross checking figures making sure nothing "extra" makes it into the budget even if it makes structural sense.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by rubato »

Crackpot wrote:"... back in the "good ole days" things were over engineered like crazy ... "


On the whole, modern building codes are much better than those of the 1930s. If you look at the patterns of damage from recent quakes ('89 locally and '92 in S. Cal) buildings built to recent codes did very well, older buildings did not and neither did recent construction which 'cheated' on the codes or were poorly inspected (many S. Cal. Apartment buildings failed because they cheated or bribed building inspectors). Unreinforced masonry was common 'back in the day' and it generally came down or suffered so much damage it had to be torn down.



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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by Crackpot »

Mind you I was speaking of engineering and not I building codes

That being said non reinforced concrete has flexibility properties that make if more durable than reinforced concrete
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Static loads are much easier to design for than dynamic ones and the shaking in an earthquake is not only horizontal but vertical as well.
That is a "DUH" statement. I would think even back then they designed for dynamic loading. While they did not have the computer modeling we have now, they did what they could wiht the tools and knowledge they had at the time. That the bridges have survived for so long is a testament to their knowledge and designs.
The whole meme that "everything we do is worse and wrong" is strictly for cowards, defeatists, and failures.


We can, and most often do, better that we did in the 1930s when we were suffering from the last Republican-induced great economic collapse, all the time.
you just had to throw in that it was the repubs that built a bridge that lasted 50+ years. I am guessing a dem built bridge would have lasted longer?
I asked engineering questions but you had to throw in politics. Exactly why?

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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by Lord Jim »

The original bridge failed after 53 years
That is a misleading over-statement....

The basic structure of the bridge did not "fail"...

A small section of the asphalt/concrete roadway surface "failed"....

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Having to resort to deliberately misleading statements to try to make one's point is strictly for cowards, defeatists, and failures.
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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by dgs49 »

Technology marches on. But...

Awarding important public construction projects to the "low bidder" is a policy that should be questioned in many cases. Better to competitively select an architect, engineer, and contractor, then work with them to develop and build the best structure, regardless of cost.

Davis Bacon and its legislative brothers needlessly adds a significant amount to the cost of virtually all public construction projects, with no public benefit whatsoever.

The permitting burden, particularly in Nanny State venues like California, has reached insane levels.

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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by Andrew D »

God, will the trolling never end?

Anyway, why weren't problems discovered in the course of inspection?

If the steel parts were defective, why were those defects not discovered during inspection?

If the nuts were wrenched too tightly, why was that not discovered during inspection?

What inspection was done? It clearly was not enough, so why was the inspection -- why were the inspections, assuming that there were at least two inspections of the pertinent components -- inadequate?
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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by Joe Guy »

Andrew D wrote: Anyway, why weren't problems discovered in the course of inspection?

If the steel parts were defective, why were those defects not discovered during inspection?

If the nuts were wrenched too tightly, why was that not discovered during inspection?

What inspection was done? It clearly was not enough, so why was the inspection -- why were the inspections, assuming that there were at least two inspections of the pertinent components -- inadequate?
My guess is that the problem was discovered during an inspection.

However, someone is going to have to answer for this - "Agency engineers had permitted the bolts to be installed despite having failed five of 150 quality tests conducted by the manufacturer and the Caltrans materials lab..." - source

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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by Scooter »

The bolts are overtighted to ensure that they can withstand the stress of holding the bridge deck in place during an earthquake.
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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by dales »

More incompetence rears its ugly head.....
Bay Bridge may have many more bad bolts

The new Bay Bridge eastern span has more than 1,200 bolts made from galvanized steel that is virtually identical to a high-strength alloy that a nationwide group of transportation officials banned for bridge use because it can crack over time, The Chronicle has learned.

The bolts serve vital roles on the new span: They anchor structures that are supposed to keep the bridge stable in an earthquake, they band the main cables together, hold the cables down at the top of the tower and bind them to the road decks.

Caltrans said last week that it was testing 192 bolts on the bridge that are similar to 32 galvanized rods that cracked when workers tightened them in March. Those failed bolts were made to be harder, Caltrans documents show, than the level at which federal guidelines consider them to be at risk of cracking when installed on a bridge — as were the 192 rods that the state is now testing for possible hidden dangers.

Caltrans documents examined by The Chronicle show that the state has procured 932 other fasteners for the bridge in the past five years that, like the failed bolts, were made of high-strength, galvanized steel.

The grade of steel used on the eastern span also ran contrary to guidelines laid out in Caltrans’ own bridge-construction manual, but Caltrans says that’s because the eastern span is an unusual project.

“Generic specifications are for a run-of-the-mill bridge, and this bridge is not run of the mill,’’ Caltrans Director Malcolm Dougherty said. “It is not unusual to follow project specific criteria.’’
Malcolm should be hung out to dry in fron of a firing squad.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by Lord Jim »

If this thing actually opens as scheduled Labor Day weekend, I will put one of these:

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On my car for a week....
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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by Crackpot »

Only a week? You don't sound too sure
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Re: 24 Years, And They STILL Can't Get It Right...

Post by Lord Jim »

Fine CP, I'll make it a month....

ETA:

And I'll throw in wearing a Dallas Cowboys wind breaker for a week... :?
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