shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

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rubato
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shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by rubato »

Some call it treason:
Vox Sentences: Is the Senate Republican letter to Iran backfiring?
http://www.vox.com/2015/3/10/8187509/se ... ran-letter


Democrats stepped up their criticism of Senate Republicans' letter to Iran, spearheaded by Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AR) and meant to scuttle nuclear talks with the US. Vice President Biden: "The decision to undercut our president and circumvent our constitutional system offends me as a matter of principle."
[NYT / Julie Hirschfeld Davis]

Hillary Clinton: "Either the senators were trying to be helpful to the Iranians or harmful to the commander in chief."
[Vox / Zack Beauchamp]

"Noting that she had opposed the war in Iraq under President George W. Bush, Senator Debbie Stabenow of Michigan, her voice shaking with rage, said, 'I never would have sent a letter to Saddam Hussein.'"
[NYT / Jennifer Steinhauser and Julie Hirschfeld Davis]

They have a point; this kind of attempt to undercut presidential control over foreign policy is really unprecedented.
[Vox / Max Fisher]

And the whole fight confirms that Iran has become Republicans' top foreign policy issue, and an issue over which the 2016 primary will be waged.
[Vox / Zack Beauchamp]

But the letter might have undermined Republicans' effort by turning Iran into a partisan issue and making it harder for Democrats to buck Obama on it.
[NYT / Jennifer Steinhauser and Julie Hirschfeld Davis]

The letter also makes it easy to blame the US if negotiations fall apart, which weakens the US's ability to convince other countries to ramp up sanctions in that event (if it's America's fault, why should Iran be punished?).
[The Atlantic / Jeffrey Goldberg]

Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif has responded with a spectacularly passive-aggressive letter that appeared intended to reassure US negotiators that he understood the domestic politics motivating the letter.
[Vox / Max Fisher]

The whole episode has provoked talk of Cotton being a "traitor," which is a preposterous and outlandish overreach.
[Mark Kleiman]

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Lord Jim
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by Lord Jim »

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Econoline
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by Econoline »

Iran Offers to Mediate Talks Between Republicans and Obama
BY ANDY BOROWITZ

TEHRAN (The Borowitz Report)—Stating that “their continuing hostilities are a threat to world peace,” Iran has offered to mediate talks between congressional Republicans and President Obama.

Iran’s Supreme Leader, Ali Khamenei, made the offer one day after Iran received what he called a “worrisome letter” from Republican leaders, which suggested to him that “the relationship between Republicans and Obama has deteriorated dangerously.”

“Tensions between these two historic enemies have been high in recent years, but we believe they are now at a boiling point,” Khamenei said. “As a result, Iran feels it must offer itself as a peacemaker.”

He said that his nation was the “logical choice” to jumpstart negotiations between Obama and the Republicans because “it has become clear that both sides currently talk more to Iran than to each other.”

He invited Obama and the Republicans to meet in Tehran to hash out their differences and called on world powers to force the two bitter foes to the bargaining table, adding, “It is time to stop the madness.”

Hours after Iran made its offer, President Obama said that he was willing to meet with his congressional adversaries under the auspices of Tehran, but questioned whether “any deal reached with Republicans is worth the paper it’s written on.”

For their part, the Republicans said they would only agree to talks if there were no preconditions, such as recognizing President Obama’s existence.
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Sue U
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by Sue U »

:lol: :lol: :lol:
GAH!

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RayThom
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"IN FESTIVITAS VERITAS"

Post by RayThom »

Congress should to take its irascible dog and pony show to Las Vegas. At the very least, their double-dipping would be transparent.

One thing for sure, if their behavior doesn't turn around quickly, the Dems are going to have an easy return to the White House next year -- as long as Hillary is out of the picture. She has more excuses than a minority in handcuffs.

Clooney/Warren... 2016
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“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.” 

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Lord Jim
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by Lord Jim »

Maybe North Korea can Co-Chair the negociations...

I have mixed feelings about this...

First of all, we can lay the whole hysterical 'traitor" and " this kind of attempt to undercut presidential control over foreign policy is really unprecedented" blah, blah, blah, BS aside; this is hardly the first time that members of Congress have attempted to interpose themselves in the conduct of foreign policy...

That picture I posted of then House Speaker Nancy Pelosi meeting with Syrian dictator Bashir Al-Assad,is from 2007...

She made that trip at a time when the Bush Administration was involved in intensive efforts to rally international support for increased pressure on the Assad regime. (If you look back over the past 30-40 years, you can find a number of additional examples; from both parties)

Second, I certainly share the concern that I believe motivated this letter:

Namely, that having seen one foreign policy miscalculation after another, after another, after another, blow up in their face, (from the "reset button" with Putin to the declaring of ISIS to be a "JV team", and many bad decisions in between) this Administration, (and Obama and Kerry in particular) is so desperate for a foreign policy "win" that they might well sign off on a deal that doesn't include sufficient safe guards against a "breakout" to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon...

I think that's a very legitimate concern...

But all of that having been said, I really don't think this letter was the best way to address that concern, primarily because of the affect it will have regarding this point from the article in the OP:
the letter might have undermined Republicans' effort by turning Iran into a partisan issue and making it harder for Democrats to buck Obama on it.
[NYT / Jennifer Steinhauser and Julie Hirschfeld Davis]
I think that's exactly right, and statements made in the Senate earlier this week by Democratic Senators Bill Nelson and Joe Manchin regarding this letter (two Democrats who have expressed public skepticism about a deal with Iran in the past) would seem to underscore that point...

I listened to some of the Senate hearing with Kerry at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee today, (the focus was mainly on the new AUMF being proposed for combating ISIS; I think the proposed resolution gives away far too much information to the enemy about what we are willing to do and how long we are willing to do it...but that's another discussion...)

But during the hearing, this letter was also discussed...

Rand Paul, (of all people) actually made a good point. While there are a number of errors about Constitutional procedures and prerogatives in the letter, (another reason it was probably ill advised) Paul pointed out, that if the President reaches an agreement which would require the lifting or suspension of Congressionally authorized sanctions, that would in fact require Congressional action; that could not be done simply by an Executive Order....

Even Obama, (who has recently demonstrated a robust and forward leaning interpretation of the purviews of Executive Orders ) seems to realize this. (If he didn't, when he decided to restore diplomatic relations with Cuba, he would have certainly have tried to nullify the Congressionally mandated embargo provisions under the Helms-Burton Act. Apparently even Obama sees that as a bridge too far.)

If the Administration comes back with an inadequate agreement, that is that battlefield to fight on. That is the play; refusing to change existing sanctions codified in law, even if the agreement requires that those legally codified sanctions be lifted....

And without this letter, if it comes to that, they would have been making this stand with substantial Democratic support...

They might still get it, but this letter makes it unnecessarily more problematic.
Last edited by Lord Jim on Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sue U
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by Sue U »

To the extent the Republicans are trying to sabotage any diplomatic effort on a nuclear deal with Iran, they are also sabotaging the much less public work of securing the most reliable regional ally against ISIS. Why does the GOP want the terrorists to win???

There is absolutely no reason Iran has to be our enemy with regard to anything. Apart from Israel, it is the closest thing to a functioning democracy in the Middle East and the most stable government in the region. It has an educated and sophisticated population, a sizeable market for American goods and services, valuable natural resources, and is in an important strategic location. Demonizing Iran and ratcheting up tensions is counterproductive and actually damaging to American interests for myriad reasons, but the GOP just can't see past the domestic politics of trying to stick it to Obama at every turn and making everything a partisan issue.
GAH!

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Long Run
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by Long Run »

One satirical piece is enough for this thread, Sue.

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Lord Jim
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by Lord Jim »

Apart from Israel, it is the closest thing to a functioning democracy in the Middle East
LOL :D

Now that's funny...

That's like saying that a wildebeest is the "closest thing" to an elephant in an animal park otherwise populated exclusively by ferrets, armadillos, game hens, mamba snakes, and frilled lizards...

Yeah, in that company it's 'the closest thing"....

But a wildebeest still ain't nothin' like an elephant...
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Crackpot
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by Crackpot »

Actually no think that title for to Turkey
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Lord Jim
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by Lord Jim »

Actually no think that title for to Turkey
Even though that post reads like CP wrote it after having a stroke, if I understand what he's trying to say correctly, he's right...

After Israel, Turkey would be the closest thing to a functioning democracy in the Middle East, not Iran....
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Joe Guy
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by Joe Guy »

Confusingly referencing Turkey is a grammatical fowl... :mrgreen:

Where's Meade?

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Turkey is in Europe. And I would say that Jordan is more of a democracy than Iran, although arguments to the contrary have a certain validity.
How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing.
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For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Long Run
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by Long Run »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:Turkey is in Europe.
I think not, but maybe we should caucas on it.

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Sue U
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by Sue U »

Turkey is not the Middle East; it's Europe (although just barely).

And Iran does have a representative democracy. It has certain controls and limitations in deference to religious authority which you may not like, because its self-styled role is that of an Islamic Republic -- and in that way is not unlike any democratic nation that unifies church and state. You might ridicule Iran's form of democracy as not democratic "enough," but the same criticism is easily directed at the United States by multi-party parliamentary democracies elsewhere in the world.

All of which elides the main point(s) of my prior post.
GAH!

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Long Run
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by Long Run »

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rubato
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by rubato »

We can all be glad McCain isn't in charge of anything:


http://www.vox.com/2015/3/11/8190671/mccain-iran-letter

Senator John McCain, whom you may remember from that one time he nearly became the president of the United States, has a less-than-satisfactory explanation for why he signed Senator Tom Cotton's open letter to Iranian leaders.

McCain told Politico that:

"I saw the letter, I saw that it looked reasonable to me and I signed it, that’s all. I sign lots of letters."

McCain's statement, reported late on Tuesday when the furor over Cotton's letter had become a national scandal, seems clearly intended to minimize his actions by making them seem commonplace and inconsequential.

Just signing a letter! Who among us hasn't signed letters? Basically the same as the family update your mom mails to all her cousins every Christmas — they're all just "letters."

Okay, Senator, you "sign lots of letters." But this letter was pretty clearly intended to undermine President Obama's position in the ongoing nuclear negotiations with Iran, by explicitly saying he would not be able to keep the promises he was making. This letter was addressed to the leadership of a hostile nation that is currently engaged in sensitive diplomatic negotiations with the United States, with the goal of undercutting the president of the United States in those negotiations.

Seems maybe worth pausing over a bit longer than the birthday card to a supporter's spouse.
... "

yrs,
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Econoline
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by Econoline »

Doesn't anyone else see this letter as a warning that "whatever agreements the United States negotiates, our nation just might not follow through and obey the terms we agree to, for domestic political reasons"? Yes, the Republicans intended to send precisely this message to Iran...but don't they realize that they are sending the same message to the rest of the world, regarding whatever future negotiations we have with any other nation? Do we really want to advertise the premise that we're so politically screwed up that we can't be trusted to follow through on our international commitments?
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
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rubato
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by rubato »

I think most people not compelled to blindly support the GOP 'get' that. Their only theory of government is to "Hate Obama" no matter how much it hurts us otherwise.


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Lord Jim
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Re: shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Post by Lord Jim »

I think that most people not compelled to blindly support Obama "get" that given the record, being concerned about his competence in handling serious foreign policy challenges is well founded, and that every criticism of him does not spring from "Hate Obama".

When 47 people sign something there are probably a lot of different motives, but concern that he would sign off on a bad deal is certainly a legitimate one.

But as I said before, this was not the way to go about dealing with that concern.
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