datsunaholic wrote:I'm not sure I agree with Ray. Sure, "Love thyself" is important... But trying to remain solitary? ...
Dats, I didn't mean to imply solitary confinement. I meant it as not constantly feeling melancholy because you have no one of the opposite sex strong enough or caring enough to absorb all your negativity and awkwardness.
You need people around you on a daily basis to keep you grounded and I bet there are many who enjoy your company... to a point. That's where you need to chose your words and emotions carefully before they shut you down with expressionless faces. And that's where professional help comes in. Impartiality and detachment is what you need for now -- friends and relatives are too close and cannot offer the helpful knowledge nor true consolation needed.
Eventually you may know yourself well enough for true intimacy. If not, at least you might find comfort in your aloneness, and that is not a bad thing if you cease making it an issue. But you ain't there yet. Stay the course.
No man is an island... try shooting for an isthmus.
“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.”
You need people around you on a daily basis to keep you grounded and I bet there are many who enjoy your company... to a point.
Therein lies the problem. I go to the Museum twice a week. I talk to my counselor once a week for an hour. That's the extent of my face-to-face time. Maybe a 2-hour call with my Mom twice a month. I don't have many friends to talk to, so I gravitate towards the ones who will. Unfortunately they are the same ones that my counselor says to avoid. And I can't see how cutting them out of my life is going to help. So I spend countless hours having conversations with thin air- an "echo" of someone I want to talk to, but can't. Everywhere. When I walk, when I'm driving, when I'm doing household chores, when I'm trying to sleep. It's a constant conversation with someone who is not there- the imagination of what someone would say if they were. That can't be healthy. And yet, hardly any task at all can turn that off. I can blare music as loud as I want to, but it's still there. The only thing that turns it off is either having a conversation with an actual person, or watching TV. And I don't want to spend countless hours in front of the TV. The 8 hours or so a week I spend now is too much.
Death is Nature's way of telling you to slow down.
Stupidly inadequate words Datsun, but I feel your pain. I recognize some of the stuff you describe in me. The narrow social life is familiar.
As I get older socializing is more difficult. My opportunities narrow, my patience with other people's opinions gets shorter. "Volunteering" is limited because The Leaders of those organizations where I volunteer, rub me the wrong way.
Life is hard. I find some rewards in my grandchildren, but they are or should soon be adults, with their own autonomy. I find it harder and harder to not piss off my wife, as our hearing fails and conversation becomes delayed by exchanged shouts.
I am not using any mood altering substances beyond coffee, but. . .
Because I have no structured, routine daily schedule,
EVery evening make a list of things you must do tomorrow. Take you walk, row your boat, go to therapy, etc.
Structure your life. It may be different for each day but at least there is a list, a structure that you must do all ready for you in the monring.
Brain meds are a tricky thing. It always amused me that the disclaimers for anti depression meds warned of depression (and worse) as a possible side effect.
But just as alcohol affects people differently, so do the brain meds.
You should check with your counselor and see if there is some kind of support group for you kind of condition. I know I enjoy talking to other alcoholics as we speak the same language. And for the record, we don't do much talking about alcohol.
Good luck and keep us posted and keep posting.
You are in my prayers.
I truly want to thank BSG for pointing out a glaring defect of mine when she said I was "patting myself on the back for...." I looked back on some things I have posted and indeed they show a surprising lack of humility.
And then I reflected on some of my dealings and doings in real life and found that there also I am behaving in a much less than humble manner.
Case in point is when I speak at meetings (which I do pretty regularly) I "eat up" the compliments and try to feign humility by saying something like, "I hope someone got something out of my experience, strength and hope", where as inside I am giving myself "high fives" and saying "yes, I nailed it".
Now I need to go and look inward about that and any other character defects that may be bubbling over.
Thank you again BSG.
Sometimes I do need a kick in the ass.
and on another thought, anyone heard from datsunaholic?
Do you wish to rise? Begin by descending. You plan a tower that will pierce the clouds? Lay first the foundation of humility. Saint Augustine
I am inspecting the foundation as we speak.
"It takes a tough man to make a tender chicken." Frank Purdue
Not a big chicken man, but I do like wings when made correctly.
Had the opportunity to have wings at the Anchor Bar when I was at school in Buffalo ('77-'78). None since have ever tasted as good but some have come close.
oldr_n_wsr wrote:Case in point is when I speak at meetings (which I do pretty regularly) I "eat up" the compliments and try to feign humility by saying something like, "I hope someone got something out of my experience, strength and hope", where as inside I am giving myself "high fives" and saying "yes, I nailed it".
What's wrong with that? Humility is when you think it but don't say it. If you said, "Well, if you haven't learned from what I've just shared with you, you ain't goin' nowhere," you just might be unhumble.....
Been doing some soul searching (and internet searching). Found this from Meher Baba:
The spiritual teacher Meher Baba held that humility is one of the foundations of devotional life: "Upon the altar of humility we must offer our prayers to God."[44] Baba also described the power of humility to overcome hostility: "True humility is strength, not weakness. It disarms antagonism and ultimately conquers it."[45] Finally, Baba emphasized the importance of being humble when serving others: "One of the most difficult things to learn is to render service without bossing, without making a fuss about it and without any consciousness of high and low. In the world of spirituality, humility counts at least as much as utility.
I believe I may have been "antagonistic" toward BSG.
And inwardly I believe I was "gloating" (making a fuss?) after my speaking engagements.
Thus I need to work on my humility/humbleness to conquer those defects.
Thanks to all for your support and views.
Haven't used this thread in a while.
I think I need to more often.
I feel better already.
Thanks again.
oldr_n_wsr wrote:
and on another thought, anyone heard from datsunaholic?
I haven't gone anywhere. Been lurking, mostly. Just trying to find a centerpoint. It's a problem when I have so many triggers. I tried basically to stop communicating with my 22-year old friend, per my Counselor's suggestion (and I finally asked her WHY she suggested that). Of course since I work with the 22-year old's dad twice a week i found out everything that happened, or at least what she bothers to tell him. Some not great stuff. She totalled her car a couple weeks ago, for instance. Plus is now sporting new ink to go along with the piercings. She's hardly the same person I knew 4 months ago. But withdrawing is hard. It's easy enough to just not text or message, but a bit harder when she shows up at the museum.
So, I ended up cleaning house a bit. My Mom came up to help, which was spurred on by me Sister wanting to come up and see the place (she's never been, and I've owned the place since 2010). That motivated me enough to find the countertops and put crap away. Tried to go to the Workforce office (that's the neo-modern name for the unemployment office) but chickened out, though I did go into the Veteran's service center which was much less chaotic. The museum offered me a part-time job sorting donated artifacts at minimum wage (basically would pay for the fuel to get there, on the days I regularly volunteer anyway). It's not optimal but I suppose it would help, and sorting other people's crap is way easier than sorting my own crap, plus it would give me something to do.
Have been less than diligent with my exercise- it won't stop raining here, but I ended up pulling salmonberry vines for 5 hours Monday trying to find the driveway to my vacant lot (which also involved trying to make a finicky 35 year old chainsaw work since there are trees down across it). That wore me out, then Wednesday I did a 3-mile walk. Plus I got my "discover pass" in the mail today so I can now explore all the State Parks and other State lands, and use the Dept. of Fish & Wildlife boat ramps.
And, lastly, I was informed by my counselor that her internship is coming to a close, so I will need to transition to a new counselor and a twice-a-month schedule instead. So, new ideas maybe.
Death is Nature's way of telling you to slow down.
Although you've been fairly upfront with much that's going on, have you had a complete physiological workup within the last year or so? I know your financial resources are limited but it would be good to know your strengths and weaknesses before venturing any further. The body's chemical processes are constantly changing -- especially as one ages. Blood testing is critical.
Once a base is established, you'd be able to devote your energies in the right direction and where they'd serve you best. I do see you stuck in patterns of the past and those are surely most hindering. To your credit you appear to be working in the proper direction so you're apparently aware of the process to "know thyself."
Change is hard... but necessary. Keep at it. It's much better than the alternative.
“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.”
This is pretty random stream of thought. And probably best left unread.
Ugh. I started off making a facebook post, decided it was too much, deleted it, wrote some of it in my journal, which being pen and paper is a bit harder to edit.
Then thought I'd write it here, decided that I didn't want to hear Ray's take on it, tried to come up with a better way of writing it. The problem is this persistent desire for an audience. Writing in my journal is fine, but only I can see that and while maybe it's helpful, when I go back and read the entries they just make be more depressed. Hell, I can go back and look at journal entries I wrote when I was 18 years old- that's 25 freaking years ago- and fall right back into the depression and angst and pain I was feeling when I wrote them. Even now, with 25 years experience and armed with knowledge of why what was happening then was happening, I still feel the pain of failure from then.
And that can't be normal, is it?
Then I worry that all I'm doing is seeking attention. That anyone that sees what I write will take it that way. And the realization that they wouldn't be wrong, because I am seeing an audience. I need somewhere to vent. And no matter how hard I try, venting to my journal just doesn't feel like it's enough. And the reason is feedback. And again, it's seeking attention, or seeking some sort of meaning. I just can't shake the feeling of uselessness, that I don't matter. Like I'd gotten fed into the Total Perspective Vortex.
But I don't dare post this crap on facebook, where my family can see it. Or my friends, who don't want to hear it. Everything I read, everything I hear says I should think happy thoughts. Yeah, based on what? Think positive? I'm a freaking human Eeyore. I've been called that to my face and didn't even take it as an insult. I worked in QA for cripes sake. A pessimist's dream job. And got laid off for it because I wasn't willing to "create" instead of destroy. Because for some perverse reason I did my best work by looking for other people's screwups.
Is that normal?
I wonder why the universe decided to play a cruel joke on me- giving me the sex drive of a rabbit on viagra but the social skills of a particularly boring chunk of metamorphic rock. A combination that has extremely damaged my already horrible relationship skills, drove me to seeking an "outlet" that has ruined my ability to have realistic expectations in any form of interpersonal relationships. And a horrific, shallowness to what I find attractive. I see other people treat women as objects and I think it so horrible, while the same damn thoughts are rolling through my head. So when other guys are cat-calling and being total asses, I'm sitting there trying to suppress the very same thoughts, feeling like a fucking hypocrite the entire time.
Is that in any way normal?
While I can't say that teenagers have the best relationships out there, at least most of them have had some practice in trying and getting rejected. I've never been rejected because I've never asked. Can't get the nerve. My excuse is I can't ask unless I know the answer. Hell, that's the story of my life- unless I was 100% certain I could do something, I wouldn't even try. I have an extreme fear of failure. My counselor says it's a symptom of low self esteem. Low? I'm not sure i have ANY self esteem. Which comes back to people saying that I can't love someone else if I can't love myself. Well, then it sounds to me that it's hopeless.
So then I want to curl up in a ball and hide from the world. Draw the shades, let no light in. I get a lot of advice- make lists, go do this, do that. Think happy thoughts. Change yourself. And yet I have no goal, no endgame, no motivation. I can no sooner do those things than sprout wings and fly. "It's all in your head". No shit. "You're dwelling on the past". Think I don't know that? I can't see the future, but the past rolls by like an 8-track tape, on a neverending loop. "Quit making excuses". As if that piece of advice ever helped. Structure. It's something my life sorely lacks. Days have become a blur of numbing sameness, gray, drab, boring. Some days feel better and I actually go out and do something, but then I fall back. I'm sick of falling back. I can't get out of this dolor. And I don't understand why.
Death is Nature's way of telling you to slow down.
datsunaholic wrote:Some days are better than others... Then thought I'd write it here, decided that I didn't want to hear Ray's take on it, tried to come up with a better way of writing it. The problem is this persistent desire for an audience.
Yep, that's me, the "broken record." Repetition is what you need right now because when dealing with personal problems the first barrage of advice is often tossed aside as nothing but nonsense.
That said, I see you're now into writing somewhat rambling manifestos. That's no good -- they serve no purpose and benefit no one. They are, however, indicators of depression and deepening psychosis.
Dats, if you're not putting yourself out there to truly fix yourself, people willing to help are going to start canceling you out as nothing but white noise. You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows, right?
I'll say it again. You know you're dealing with a degree of mental illness so you're ahead of the game in so many ways. The key to better health is mapping out a plan with trained and caring professionals and staying on that path no matter what it takes. So far you're very reluctant to do so. Change is hard.
Talk therapy is always good and there are many here to work with you. However, none of it will matter if you're not doing the hard work at home. Most of all don't give up. I wish you the best. Ray
“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.”
And yet I have no goal, no endgame, no motivation.
Don't look so far out.
Not even past today.
While we can plan for the future, we can't put it in stone as things change.
The past we can do nothing about.That IS set in stone. Can't dwell on it.
Yesterdays regrets and tomorrows worry take away todays peace.
Do little things. Get up and make the bed, today. Brush your teeth, today. Take your walk, today. Clean up one room, today.
Get into the habit of doing these things every day.
Make them second nature.
Add something new to the routine every day so it doesn't feel like being in a rut.
Well, Ray, the "Rambling Manifestos" was something my counselor had said to try. Well, not in those terms, but she said to spend 20 minutes a day writing down my thoughts. Which, if I go back and look at the last month's worth, all look pretty much like that, just not particularly legible. So I've gotten feedback, and maybe I'll try to tell my counselor about it and see what she has to say.
Of course, I've written those to myself. For some reason last night I ended up typing it out and posting it. Which was a dumb idea in retrospect, because it was exactly the opposite of what I was told to do, but I forgot. If I'd bothered to look at my "crisis plan" I would have seen it sat "don't get on the internet". So, today I remember that, but then again I'm not feeling as bad as I was last night when I felt the need to vent publicly. Of course I can keep it all internalized. I'm not sure how that will help. Both my counselor and my doctor say they thought I was making progress. And some days, I've felt that way. Others, not so much. They both say it's a journey up out of depression, and it takes time to pull up to a higher normal. But then I fall back. And I don't know why. I can try to avoid triggers, but for me that means withdrawing. I don't have a happy place to go to get out of my thoughts. It seems to me that everyone around me is a trigger, and loneliness is a trigger. Ray talks about me becoming "white noise" but I've felt that I've been white noise to most people my whole life. My desperate cries for help go unanswered. Well, that's partially on me because I hide those cries in an attempt so appear normal.
Anyhow, I need to go try and do something.
Death is Nature's way of telling you to slow down.
For some reason last night I ended up typing it out and posting it. Which was a dumb idea in retrospect, because it was exactly the opposite of what I was told to do, but I forgot. If I'd bothered to look at my "crisis plan" I would have seen it sat "don't get on the internet". So, today I remember that, but then again I'm not feeling as bad as I was last night when I felt the need to vent publicly.
Maybe you feel better today BECAUSE you posted what you did last night. And maybe it was the feedback from what you posted which you could not have gotten had you not posted.
Did the counselor say not to go on ALL of the internet? or just certain parts of it?
I opened this thread to air my journey. Writing in a journal helps too, but it's good to get feedback (positive and negative) as that's how we grow as people. Hearing the same voice (couselor, doctor, etc) over and over you come to know what their responses are going to be. Here we have more people with a variety of experiences (Ray and myself are alcohlics but our journey to sobriety are very different, gob is in the mental health arena, and others have life experiences battling depression and other mental maladies)
I try and repeat what I seem to be doing that's good and work on the things that are not so good (or even bad).
And even if no one responds, it's sometimes good just to get it off your chest where other people are reading it.
May you obtain peace and serenity.
My thoughts and prayers are with you.
She actually said not to read responses to things that could deepen the depression. She didn't say not to write them down. Both my doctor and counselor think catharsis is good, but the problem is when I write things down to my self, they don't go away. And sometimes they're repetitive. I'm trying to escape a cycle, but I keep falling back into it. It's very much like an addiction. The key, as everyone keeps saying, is to replace it with something positive. Which would be great if I had the motivation to do so but the only motivation I get is when someone tells me to "be here, at a specific time". I try to tell myself to do that, but there's no one to get mad at me for "missing an appointment" if it's just myself. See the issue? It's bad that I see the problem, know one way to fix it, yet won't take the steps to do so. I cleaned my house because my Sister came over for a visit. She set a day and I had that long to do so, yet didn't really get started until 3 days before when my Mom came over to help. And took 5 hours to clear one table, because I keep getting distracted by other things. But I threw away all sorts of old paperwork and such, and when I was done not only was the kitchen table cleared, but by the time my Sister came to visit I'd cleared the couch, the coffee table, the dining room table, and most of the kitchen counters. Stuff actually found places to go.
And then, I had no reason to continue, because no one else was stopping by. No external motivation.
My counselor has been repeatedly telling me to go to the unemployment office. I signed up for an account, and even managed to go in the door, but had an anxiety attack (which my counselor says is not really an anxiety attack), wasn't able to say a concise sentence, and fled. Then I get home an beat myself up for being such a wimp about it. I'd love to figure out how to not have that problem, because it's one of my biggest issues in life.
Death is Nature's way of telling you to slow down.
