de-plane boss

[rubato]

You forget that the CEO doubled down on the error.

if it were an isolated incident he would have condemned their actions, apologized for them and offered restitution to the injured party. That is what moral people do.

And United justified it by saying "they were following the procedure"; so this was routine.

Sheeple are the people who accepted this treatment and helped them cover it up by not saying anything.

yrs,
rubato

Just found this quote:

United CEO Oscar Munoz even told the company's staff in an internal memo that "our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this."

[Jarlaxle]

Geez...United has sucked for years.

[Bicycle Bill]

Wake up yourself, Joe.  This kind of shit goes on all the time.  Go back in this thread and re-read Long Run's post on page 1 where he cites these figures:

Last year, United forced 3,765 people off oversold flights and another 62,895 United passengers volunteered to give up their seats, probably in exchange for travel vouchers.  That is out of more than 86 million people who boarded a United flight in 2016, according to government figures. United ranks in the middle of US carriers when it comes to bumping passengers.
(So if you don't make waves it's all BAU — business as usual)

The guy getting dragged off the plane is *NOT* business as usual.  It's the video that went viral.  It's the incident that made headlines.  It's the 10% of the iceberg that is visible ABOVE the waterline.

Now read this article: Why Delta Air Line Paid Me $11,000 NOT to Fly to Florida.  Granted, this sounds like the writer is someone who has figured out to play the system, but even so, this proves there was a better way to handle things than the way the guys calling the shots for United in Chicago did.

And just as an aside here, haven't the people who decided the only way to get the guy off the plane was to call in the Brute Squad and drag him off ever heard of social media?  Didn't they stop to think that maybe, just maybe, there just might be a passenger on board that flight with a cellphone who would take a video of this and have it uploaded to Facebook or Instagram or YouTube or some other site before they even got to the end of the jetway?  Or were they all suddenly struck with CRIS (craniorectal inversion syndrome)?

-"BB"-

[Joe Guy]

The part of Long Run's post that you copied and pasted supports what I said. This happened to one out of what will probably be at least 86 million people this year AND United Airlines "in the middle" of airlines bumping passengers, yet, they are now the most hated airline in the world, and 1.3 billion people in China are upset because he was an abused Asian.

The security people could have done a better job and he should not have resisted the way he did. It happened. United will have to pay for damages because people are offended by a stubborn jerk being pulled off of an airplane.

I'm offended by offended people.

[Bicycle Bill]

Airline ticket booking is just a modern take on check kiting.  For those who don't remember working with checks, that's when you write a check when you know you don't have sufficient funds in the account, but you count on the two or three day lag time (more if it was on a holiday weekend) for the check to process for you to be able get to the bank and cover it.

Airlines are doing the same thing — selling tickets for seats that they don't have because they have found in the past that some travelers make multiple reservations for the same journey at various times and on various airlines, pick the flight they want and then cancel the rest (they also recognize that there are going to be some legitimate no-shows and last-minute cancellations for valid and unavoidable reasons and take those into account as well).  Then they make a calculated gamble that the number of no-shows will be equal to the number of oversold tickets, because God forbid that the airplane should leave the ramp only partially full.

Going back to LR's stats, this means that United Airline "denied boarding" to 66,500 people out of some 86 million total passengers; which works out to about seven one-hundredths of one percent of ticketholders getting 'bumped'.  So they've got the computer models and the algorithms worked out pretty well.... and when it doesn't they throw money, in the form of vouchers or other compensation, at the problem.  But it still means that they are selling a lot of tickets — tickets for which they know at the time of the sale that they do not have a corresponding empty seat on the aircraft — to a lot of people.

So what's the worst thing that could happen if the airlines only sold as many tickets as there were seats (or maybe didn't oversell by quite so much) and the plane ended up taking off with an empty seat or two?  Sure, they lose the revenue they might have made by putting someone else's butt in that seat, but if they don't have to bribe people to get off an overbooked aircraft it just might end up being a wash.

-"BB"-

[Econoline]

[Econoline]

But seriously...

• United Passenger “Removal”: A Reporting and Management Fail
  Posted on April 12, 2017 by Yves Smith
  
  As disturbing as is the now widely-discussed incident of the brute force removal of a 69 year old doctor from a United flight last week, equally troubling is the poor job the press has done on such a high profile and relatively simple story. We’ll go over some of the glaring and regular errors as well as troubling oversights before turning to another puzzlingly under-examined issue: what this incident says about management at United. And we don’t mean arrogance and tone-deafness.
  
  Reporting Failures
  
  Widespread misreporting of the cause of the incident as “overbooking”. It would be difficult to figure out how to construct a reasonable sample, from reading a large number of accounts of the incident, a substantial majority, which I would guesstimate as being in the 75% range, refer to the cause of United’s perceived need to eject the elderly passenger, Dr. David Dao, as “overbooking”. Confirming this impression is that that four Senators and Governor Chris Christie, when weighing in on the incident, all referred to it as the result of overbooking or overselling.
  
  Overbooking is a capacity management practice of selling more tickets for a particular flight than there are actual seats. Airlines do that because they have sufficient experience with the level of no-shows and late-in-the-game rebookings to not wind up with oversold flights all that often.
  
  In fact, as careful readers know, United wanted to free up four seats so that crew members could fly to from O’Hare to Louisville. The excuse for United’s urgency was that if these crew members didn’t get to their flight, it would create cascading delays. Early accounts can be excused for this error, since the initial tweets with the appalling videos described the cause as overbooking. But any article published more than 24 hours after the story broke has no excuse for getting this basic and important detail wrong, particularly after United CEO Oscar Munoz said the flight was indeed not overbooked.
  
  This widespread misreporting has the unfortunate effect of making United’s abuse seem like a disastrous handling of a routine problem when it was much worse than that. For instance, Amy Davidson of the New Yorker gets this wrong even with the knowledge that United decided to bump passengers to seat crew:

  • United overbooked it; that happens all the time. The airline let everybody board, and then decided that it needed four more seats to get some crew members to Louisville for work the next morning.

  
  Let us underscore: even putting aside the violence, what happened in this case does NOT happen all the time, and that has legal implications.
  
  Absence of reporting on airline regulations leads to widespread skewing of story in United’s favor. Even though most readers may think United is getting beaten up aplenty in the press, in fact it is getting a virtual free pass as far as its rights to remove a paying passenger with a confirmed seat who has been seated.1 This seems to reflect the deep internalization in America of deference to authority in the post 9/11 world, as well as reporters who appear to be insufficiently inquisitive. And there also seems to be a widespread perception that because it’s United’s plane, it can do what it sees fit. In fact, airlines are regulated and United is also bound to honor its own agreements.
  
  It is telling, in not a good way, that Naked Capitalism reader Uahsenaa found a better discussion of the legal issues on Reddit than Lambert and I have yet to see in the media and the blogosphere (including from sites that profess to be knowledgeable about aviation):

  • Lawyer here. This myth that passengers don’t have rights needs to go away, ASAP. You are dead wrong when saying that United legally kicked him off the plane.
    
    First of all, it’s airline spin to call this an overbooking. The statutory provision granting them the ability to deny boarding is about “OVERSALES”, specifically defines as booking more reserved confirmed seats than there are available. This is not what happened. They did not overbook the flight; they had a fully booked flight, and not only did everyone already have a reserved confirmed seat, they were all sitting in them. The law allowing them to denying boarding in the event of an oversale does not apply.
    
    Even if it did apply, the law is unambiguously clear that airlines have to give preference to everyone with reserved confirmed seats when choosing to involuntarily deny boarding. They have to always choose the solution that will affect the least amount of reserved confirmed seats. This rule is straightforward, and United makes very clear in their own contract of carriage that employees of their own or of other carriers may be denied boarding without compensation because they do not have reserved confirmed seats. On its face, it’s clear that what they did was illegal– they gave preference to their employees over people who had reserved confirmed seats, in violation of 14 CFR 250.2a.
    
    Furthermore, even if you try and twist this into a legal application of 250.2a and say that United had the right to deny him boarding in the event of an overbooking; they did NOT have the right to kick him off the plane. Their contract of carriage highlights there is a complete difference in rights after you’ve boarded and sat on the plane, and Rule 21 goes over the specific scenarios where you could get kicked off. NONE of them apply here. He did absolutely nothing wrong and shouldn’t have been targeted. He’s going to leave with a hefty settlement after this fiasco.

  
  His analysis checks out. “14 CFR 250.2a” is an FAA regulation. Here is what is says per a Cornell law school site, which courteously supplies links to definitions of key terms:

  • § 250.2a Policy regarding denied boarding.
    In the event of an oversold flight, every carrier shall ensure that the smallest practicable number of persons holding confirmed reserved space on that flight are denied boarding involuntarily.

  
  So the lawyer who popped up on Reddit looks to be on solid ground in saying it was an FAA violation to try to kick off a confirmed passenger in favor of crew.
  
  Similarly, if you look at the relevant part of United’s Contract of Carriage, which indeed is Rule 21, “Refusal of Transport,” you will see a remarkably long list of situations and types of passengers, including “have or cause a malodorous condition (other than individuals qualifying as disabled), those who violate United’s policies regarding voice calls, and pregnant women in their ninth month, unless they have a recent doctor’s note (pray tell, since when are airline personnel expert in determining how far along a pregnant woman is?). And again you see nothing remotely like a “we need the seat for business reasons” or a catchall “because we feel like it”.
  
  Astonishingly, a USA Today story, “United Airlines can remove you from a flight for dozens of reasons you agree to”, where the reporter was alert enough to consider United’s legal position and even mentioned the contract of carriage, spun the piece completely in United’s favor. Not only did the author apparently fail to read the relevant section, his sources gave the Big Corporate Lie that United must be right. From the article:

  • “Those contracts are well thought through. They are generally fair and balanced, and they reflect the market,” said Roy Goldberg, a partner at Steptoe & Johnson who practices aviation law in Washington, D.C. “As a general matter, passengers have rights, but airlines have rights, too.”

  
  And the article like so many others, mischaracterize the issue as overselling, falsely telling millions of readers that United was on solid ground.
  
  Similarly, Amy Davidson of the New Yorker distorted what happened to justify Dr. Dao’s removal:

  • The man, at any rate, refused—not on the principle of having bought a ticket and having some right to use it but because, he said, he was a doctor and had patients to see in the morning. That is a good reason, and one that was worth more than eight hundred dollars to the doctor as well as to, presumably, his patients. The airline seems to have disagreed; that’s when it called the cops for a forcible removal. Or, as the airline put it, in a tweeted statement that ignored the ordinary meaning of the words it used, “After our team looked for volunteers, one customer refused to leave the aircraft voluntarily and law enforcement was asked to come to the gate.”…
    
    In Chicago, the doctor’s emphatic “no” appears to have moved him into a category of non-compliant, troublemaking passengers, whom the airlines have, with what appears to be increasing indifference, treated as they see fit.

  
  No, no, no. The very act of asking Dr. Dao to get off was illegitimate, and calling the cops didn’t make it so. One of the more detailed accounts, at the New York Post, suggests that things got out of hand when a third officer arrived and escalated matters:

  • Officials said a pair of security guards with the Chicago Department of Aviation had tried talking the man into leaving, to no avail. A third later arrived and threw the passenger against the armrest before the guards dragged him out of the plane.

  
  One skeptical account comes from CBS’s Philly affiliate, “Aviation Attorney Believes United Airlines Violated Its Own Contract”, and on the Federalist blog.
  
  Understating the extent of Dr. Dao’s injuries. Most of the accounts focus on his bloody lip and bruises. Far more serious was that he was knocked out. That is an almost certain sign of a concussion, which is also suggested by the fact that when he reboarded the plane, passengers depicted him as dazed. Only recently has the medical community started studying the danger of concussions particularly multiple concussions. However, an expert I know who is working with sports teams to try to reduce the risk of injury says there is increasing concern that as few as three concussions can produce cognitive impairment 10 to 20 years later. Those findings are based on trauma to young athletes like football players and boxers. The damage might show up sooner in an older victim. Admittedly, we have no idea if Dr. Dao has ever suffered a previous head injury, but the point is a concussion is far more serious than most people probably realize.
  
  Troubling inconsistencies across stories. Dr. Dao was removed from the plane, yet some stories depict him as reboarding, as one put it, in “about ten minutes”. Yet Dr. Dao’s attorney has issued a statement saying in part:

  • “The family of Dr. Dao wants the world to know that they are very appreciative of the outpouring of prayers, concern and support they have received. Currently, they are focused only on Dr. Dao’s medical care and treatment,” said [Stephen L.] Golan [of Golan Christie Taglia].
    
    “Until Dr. Dao is released from the hospital, the family is asking for privacy and will not be making any statements to the media”

  
  Similarly, some accounts say the plane was emptied to clean up the blood from the removal and then reboarded. How does that square with Dr. Dao supposedly getting back on the plane shortly after being dragged off?
  
  Lack of discussion of the status of the airport security personnel. The Financial Times was one of the few publications to be early to describe the airport security staff correctly, as security officers of the Chicago Department of Aviation. The Department of Aviation is a self-funded governmental unit (virtually no municipal airports in the US have been privatized). Its security personnel are airport police. They are not part of the Chicago Police department but appear to have their own special purpose authority within the airport.
  
  First, we have the wee question of why the police didn’t operate more independently of United. Their job is to enforce airport rules, not act as agents of airline overreach. Second, a red flag is that Richard Zuley, an interegator at Guantanamo Bay as well as a 30 year member of the Chicago Police Department, had been homicide officer involved with a series of wrongful convictions. A 2015 Guardian story not discussed at length his aggressive techniques, which included allegations of torture. He had then left the CPD and was working as a security officer at the Chicago Department of Aviation. Is this just an isolated example or have other Chicago cops with dodgy records find a second career at the Chicago airport?
  
  Underplaying Magnitude of United’s Management Fail
  
  The press hasn’t bothered to go beyond cheap outrage. Too much of what passes for reporting comes straight from Twitter: first the video clip from passengers, then the appalling half-hearted statement of CEO Oscar Munoz contradicted by his internal e-mail that depicted Dr. Dao as “disruptive and belligerent” and defended staff for complying with “established procedures for dealing with situations like this.” It’s an open question as to whether he would have switched gears to a way-too-late attempt at a faux sincere apology had the story not gone even more viral in China than in the US, which is a top priority market for United, and the stock losing over $1.6 billion the next day.
  
  The missed significance of the four crew members showing up after the plane has boarded seeking seats. This is no way to run an airline. The FAA tracks flight status of planes by their tail numbers in real time. If the four crew members were in a fix due to a flight delay, United should have known well before they landed and alerted the gate personnel of whatever flight it wanted to put them on as soon as the gate opened. Even though it was illegal to dump confirmed passengers, United could have come up with a cock-and-bull story, like the had been forced to use a smaller plane and some passengers would have to travel late. They could have called out the names of the four unfortunates. In that scenario. Dr. Dao’s only recourse would have been to make a stink in the gate area, which would have gone nowhere. And if the crew had been in Chicago and got to their original flight to Louisville late and therefore had to be moved over to this flight, that is inexcusable.
  
  This in turn reveals the lack of any slack whatsoever in United’s system. Clearly the urgency was due to the four crew members somehow being late; Plan A had failed and the last minute boarding effort was Plan B or maybe even Plan C. As one experienced passenger said, “They can’t come up with four crew members in one of their biggest hubs?”
  
  It also is a symptom of a badly fragmented business system heavily dependent on contractors. As reader Jerry Denim said:

  • United’s real problem isn’t PR though, it’s outsourcing. An astonishing amount of United Airlines flying is conducted by outsourced employees who work for contractor shell companies. The whole idea is cost savings/profits through labor arbitrage and the typical race to the bottom dynamic. Regional airline employees have coined their own term for it- “The Whipsaw”.
    
    Even worse than the shell-company Regional airlines whose employees are second class citizens are the shape-shifting contractor companies that provide gate agents, bag handlers and other random airport services for United. These people are really paid peanuts and mistreated, they are something akin to third or fourth class employees and usually not what I would call the cream of the labor pool. The United flight with the passenger that was brutally manhandled was UA 3411, it was technically operated by Republic Airlines, one of United’s many “regional partners”. As this event took place in Chicago O’Hare the person who made the decision to cap the offer for volunteers willing to give up their seats at $800, then call in a goon squad to get rough was likely a full-fledge United employee, but then maybe not.
    
    When I was a outsourced regional jet captain operating United Express flights between 2010 and 2014 the gate agents in charge of the regional (out-sourced) flights at United hub, Washington-Dulles, were third-party contractors. They were horribly trained and frequently surly. The gates were always crowded, everyone there was angry, nothing worked, it was utter chaos and misery. I absolutely dreaded flying there and did my best to avoid it, Chicago was only a little better.
    
    Sadly the horrible, unnecessary violence that played out on United Express flight 3411 doesn’t surprise me a bit and is par for the course with a company as disgruntled, disorganized and dysfunctional as United. I really don’t think the upper management at United has any clue about the nuts and bolts, day to day, inner workings of the company. Post-merger United is too big to fail, too big to manage and far too Balkanized to govern. I fully expect the ugliness to continue at United.

  
  It’s bad enough when travelers suffer the indignity of disrupted plans, crowded planes, security theater and too often cranky airport staff. Now we’ve seen United execute a private sector extraordinary rendition. Perhaps this fiasco will lead to some improvements, but the lousy economics of airlines combined with their oligopoly status in the US says they will be extremely reluctant to make anything beyond bare minimum changes.

[Crackpot]

Way underestimated the number of pieces.

[oldr_n_wsr]

I'm offended by offended people.

Everyone plays the victim.
It's a warm fuzzy robe we wear. And with todays technology, we can rally people to our "cause".
Plenty of blame being tossed all around, haven't seen anyone being the responsible party.
Oh well.


ETA
The "victim" in this case will be some $$$ richer, the gov will take it's piece of the pie (or are these types of payouts non taxable) United will take a temporary hit.
The gov will contemplate their navals stepping in and adding to the fliers bill of rights but in the end, nothing will be done (not sure anything should be done).
In 5 months weeks or days it will all be forgotten and we'll return to business as usual which is bitching and moaning and video posting about some other MAJOR calamity like someone being offended by a corporation/another person.

[Big RR]

NPR had interesting piece on bumping and how the airlines could avoid situations like this in the future. One I thought was interesting was to start first with a very high premium that would bring in a lot of volunteers and then bid down until the group is reduced to the desired number; so here they could have first offered something like $5000 or 10 free trips which might have had 30 or 40 volunteers, and then started going downward (who will accept $4000? $3000?, etc.). the other thing they said is that it always should be done before boarding, because once a person is in a seat their price will go up because they now feel they have a tangible thing that they are giving up.

[Burning Petard]

The United CEO says company protocol was followed. The cascading results indicate the protocol needs extensive change.

Where is the voice of the owners in this discussion? Is the CEO truly acting in the best interest of stockholders?
Econoline's post above indicates the news media is still lazy and ill-informed--the characteristics that contributed so much to the election of our president.

Failure to adequately plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. But It is good argument for keeping a tort lawyer on speed dial.

snailgate

[Bicycle Bill]

The United flight with the passenger that was brutally manhandled was UA 3411, it was technically operated by Republic Airlines, one of United’s many “regional partners”.

Just wanted to point out that the above incarnation of 'Republic Airlines' has — in no way, shape, or form — any connection with the original Republic Airlines

(or its predecessor, known as North Central Airlines) that operated in the Upper Midwest from 1944 through 1986, when it merged with and was absorbed into Northwest Orient Airlines.

-"BB"-

[Gob]

Hyperbole much?

A man dragged screaming off a United Airlines flight described his ordeal as "more horrifying" than his experiences in the Vietnam War, his lawyer says.
Attorneys for Dr David Dao, who lost two front teeth and suffered a broken nose and "significant" concussion in the incident, say they will sue.

[rubato]

They could have a dutch auction.


yrs,
rubato

[Econoline]

To reiterate...

• • United Airlines Did Not Have the Legal Right to Refuse Service to the Doctor Dragged Off Its Plane

• A passenger was violently dragged off a flight, but it's even worse than you thought.
  By Cynthia Than
  
  On Sunday night, a video surfaced of a man being forcibly removed by airport security while he was on a United Airlines regional flight at O'Hare Airport in Chicago, Illinois. The elderly passenger in the video, who appeared to be unconscious as he was dragged from his seat, was later identified as 69-year-old David Dao, a doctor who refused to voluntarily give up his seat because he said that he had patients to see the next day.
  
  A widely circulated tweet and many major news outlets, including the New York Times and CNN, incorrectly reported that United Flight 3411 was overbooked. The practice of overbooking allows airlines to keep prices low for consumers since overselling seats means that a flight has a greater chance of being full. However, other passengers on the flight, and the CEO of United Airlines, explained that the flight was not, in fact, overbooked but that four passengers had been requested to give up their seats for crew members who had to commute to Louisville, Kentucky, to work on flights the following day.
  
  Even The New Yorker, which understood that passengers were bumped for crew members, referred to the problem as an "overbooked" flight, clearly not understanding what overbooked actually means. (The only way the flight could have been overbooked would be if flights always have empty seats for unanticipated crew members to fly for free, which would defeat the purpose of overselling in the first place.)
  
  The fact that the flight was not overbooked may seem trivial, or pedantic, but there is very important legal distinction to be made. There may not be a difference in how an airline (typically) responds when it needs additional seats, such as asking for volunteers who wish to give up their seat for a voucher or cash. But there is a legal difference between bumping a passenger in the instance of overselling a flight versus bumping a passenger to give priority to another passenger. Any thoughtful person can see the problem that arises if an airline were allowed to legally remove one fare-paying passenger to allow for another passenger it prefers.
  
  Since the flight was not actually overbooked, but instead only fully booked, with the exact number of passengers as seats available, United Airlines had no legal right to force any passengers to give up their seats to prioritize others. What United did was give preference to their employees over people who had reserved confirmed seats, which would have been a violation of 14 CFR 250.2a (if the flight were overbooked, as United had originally claimed). Since Dr. Dao was already seated, it was clear that his seat had already been "reserved" and "confirmed" to accommodate him specifically.
  
  A United Airlines spokesperson said that since Dr. Dao refused to give up his seat and leave the plane voluntarily, airline employees "had to" call upon airport security to force him to comply. However, since the flight was not overbooked, United Airlines had no legal right to give his seat to another passenger. In United Airline's Contract of Service, they list the reasons that a passenger may be refused service, many of which are reasonable, such as "failure to pay" or lacking "proof of identity." Nowhere in the terms of service does United Airlines claim to have unilateral authority to refuse service to anyone, for any reason (which would be illegal anyway).

[MGMcAnick]

NPR had interesting piece on bumping and how the airlines could avoid situations like this in the future. One I thought was interesting was to start first with a very high premium that would bring in a lot of volunteers and then bid down until the group is reduced to the desired number; so here they could have first offered something like $5000 or 10 free trips which might have had 30 or 40 volunteers, and then started going downward (who will accept $4000? $3000?, etc.). the other thing they said is that it always should be done before boarding, because once a person is in a seat their price will go up because they now feel they have a tangible thing that they are giving up.

I heard that piece too, and was reminded of the only time I was offered a travel voucher for taking a later flight. As it turned out, the plane we were on had a mechanical issue before take off, and had to return to the gate at PHX for a 1-1/2 hour wait while they fixed it. The later flight we would have been on landed at ICT before the one we were forced to sit on at the gate. I would have taken the $400 vouchers (in 1996 dollars) but Mrs Mc disagreed. We also flew through the WORST turbulence I have ever experienced, but that's another story. Nighttime lightening illuminated the flexing wings like a strobe in their high and low positions. Had I not known they were supposed to do that, I'd have probably been among those passengers going for their sic-sacs.

[Bicycle Bill]

-"BB"-

[Long Run]

In the category of putting bad news in the review mirror as quickly as possible:

Doctor at Center of United Saga Settles With Airline
United is also vowing to reduce, but not eliminate, overbooking flights

The Kentucky doctor dragged off an airplane in Chicago, in a startling incident captured in a viral video that sparked global headlines, has settled with United Airlines for an undisclosed amount.

According to a statement from his attorney, Dr. David Dao "has reached an amicable settlement" with the airline "for the injuries he received in his April 9th ordeal."

Source: Doctor at Center of United Saga Settles With Airline | NBC Chicago http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Do ... z4fUTW8uDi

[Bicycle Bill]

-"BB"-

[Bicycle Bill]

-"BB"-